This game put itself in a terrible position.

[D YellowMadness]

A position where, if it's easy, it's boring &, if it's hard, it's tedious. What I mean is that a metroidvania that punishes you so heavily for death is incapable of being a fun game because dying just twice in this game is unacceptable due to the harsh consequences but never dying would be boring.

The annoying death mechanic was a minor annoyance in Demon's Souls that brough nothing good to the table but it was far from a deal breaker. Here, it contradicts the entire draw of the genre. The point of a metroidvania is exploration & progression. I'm not eploring & progressing if I'm following a map marker to return to a place I've already been to get money I already had.

I know the game has to send me back somewhere so dying matters but sending me back to a checkpoint would've been enough. No one has ever died in a game & sighed in disappointment at the fact that the game didn't kick them completely out of the level, weaken them, & take all of their money.

Worse is the fact that I died with over 200 money but killing my specter only gave me back 20. When I played a much harder metroidvania called Rabi-Ribi & I died to a boss that took 20 minutes, I loved it. It was my favorite boss in any game ever. The key difference there is that I could immediately try again & I didn't get weaker & lose money every time I died. I was fighting her for hours & loving nearly every second of it but this game killed all of my enthusiasm in only 2 deaths.

People will inevitably say I should just be more patient & git gud but I had the patience for the boss below & we all know extremely few people would. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZcWOwfcfIbU

[Zanice DG]

I never died twice and lost geo in my about 100 hours of gameplay, so I didn't feel that the punishment for death was all that harsh. It never discouraged me from playing. I just don't see this as an adequate critique of Hollow Knight, though I've seen it brought up in many reviews.

[D YellowMadness]

Originally posted by Zanice DG:

I never died twice and lost geo in my about 100 hours of gameplay, so I didn't feel that the punishment for death was all that harsh. It never discouraged me from playing. I just don't see this as an adequate critique of Hollow Knight, though I've seen it brought up in many reviews.

That's kind of my point though. You can either almost never die which is boring or you can sometimes die & have the game become extremely tedious as a result. Instead of rewarding the most skilled players, it's punishing everyone else. It's marketed to people who want a challenge & yet it seems deadset on making sure you won't enjoy the challenge.

Worse, I only died the second time because I was hasty because tracking down my specter was tedious.

Edit: Wait, are you implying that you're only supposed to lose money if you die twice? Because I died once & lost everything.

[arejang]

You'll soon get access to rancid eggs at which point you can turn them in instead of going to fetch your shade at some really bad, hard to reach spot.

That said, I don't know if you've been told this yet, but money becomes really trivial later on in the game. I've permanently lost around 6k money ( geo) due to back to back deaths and still I bought almost everything I wanted with money left to spare.

I'm not going to tell you this needs to be your game because it was my favorite game. It might not be. I'm just saying the death mechanic is really not as bad as you make it out to be. The game gives you workarounds to most of the common time consuming mundane mechanics.

[D YellowMadness]

Originally posted by arejang:

You'll soon get access to rancid eggs at which point you can turn them in instead of going to fetch your shade at some really bad, hard to reach spot.

That said, I don't know if you've been told this yet, but money becomes really trivial later on in the game. I've permanently lost around 6k money ( geo) due to back to back deaths and still I bought almost everything I wanted with money left to spare.

I'm not going to tell you this needs to be your game because it was my favorite game. It might not be. I'm just saying the death mechanic is really not as bad as you make it out to be. The game gives you workarounds to most of the common time consuming mundane mechanics.

When do you gain access to those workarounds?

[arejang]

The rancid eggs you should get early to mid game. If corpse runs are hateful to you, you'll also get access to dream gates which serve as a portal from wherever you are to a save spot you can place almost anywhere in game. I didn't see anything else you hated about this game besides the corpse runs and the death mechanic.

It's a good game, and I hate to see people leave it for something so trivial. If you want to give it a chance, I think it'll ultimately be worth your time. I get the sense you're pretty unhappy right now about your 200 geo though, so I'll leave you to yourself to make that choice.

[D YellowMadness]

Originally posted by arejang:

The rancid eggs you should get early to mid game. If corpse runs are hateful to you, you'll also get access to dream gates which serve as a portal from wherever you are to a save spot you can place almost anywhere in game. I didn't see anything else you hated about this game besides the corpse runs and the death mechanic.

It's a good game, and I hate to see people leave it for something so trivial. If you want to give it a chance, I think it'll ultimately be worth your time. I get the sense you're pretty unhappy right now about your 200 geo though, so I'll leave you to yourself to make that choice.

I guess I'll try playing it without paying any attention to money &, if I die, I'll just accept that I'm gonna be weakened.... temporarily? It's temporary in some way right? Because my main deal is that I never wanna do a corpse run ever again because it may be the worst mechanic I've ever experienced.

[arejang]

The consequences of your first death is you lose all of your current geo, and you can't fill up your soul sphere completely, but you can still charge it up halfway. Retreive your shade and you get your geo back and your soul sphere is repaired. The setback for most times is rather minimal. During the rare times you die in an absolutely hellish location, you can trade one of those rancid eggs to summon your shade in a safe spot.

http://hollowknight.wikia.com/wiki/Confessor_Jiji

[D YellowMadness]

Apparently, I had a glitch that was stopping the ascend prompt from appearing so I couldn't leave so I could upgrade my map so I couldn't find the boss so I couldn't stay interested so I eventually got too bored so I started messing up too much & died.

After that problem cleared up, I upgraded my map, quickly found the boss, & killed it in 2 tries. The game seems a lot better now but I'll take a break from it for now & play it tomorrow with a clearer head. Thanks.

Edit: Actually, my refund went through so the game's gone so I have to wait until I get my money back before I can play it more.

[Damos]

Originally posted by D YellowMadness:

I'm not eploring & progressing if I'm following a map marker to return to a place I've already been to get money I already had.

One thing worth noting that's pretty unique to HK (and that you may not have found out yet) is that every item or upgrave you've found, every secret wall, switch activated or shortcut opened, etc.. all that stuff is saved in real time, permanent and kept between deaths. Same for every interaction you have with NPC and environments.

Which means you never have to do things twice in HK. Once you've beat a challenge or a section and got its reward, its yours for good, no matter if you die before reaching the next bench or not. In that sense, your playtime and exploration is never wasted.

The only consequences (or punishment) left for dying is your money at risk and waiting for you to pick it up on your death spot, and being physically sent back to your last bench. Which I find really fair personally and in the interest of the player : more advantages than drawbacks all things considered!

[diaskeaus]

I felt like you did at first, but it seems to be getting easier. Timing improves with play, but you also unlock fast travel, get abilities to lessen damage and heal yourself, and I just unlocked a range attack. Your shades aren't that hard to defeat either.

I think the most important strategy for survival is healing yourself though. Get the charm that allows you to get extra soul from enemies you kill, and you can often tank a boss or mini-boss with just a few hits and then heal yourself.

I just bought the egg and have no idea how to use it, but from what I've heard that will help if you haven't unlocked a bench (for quicker travel back to your shade, if you die). Altogether, the game is a lot easier than typical metroidvanias (if we go by the classic genre, like Castlevania/Metroid).

[arejang]

The rancid egg you turn in to jiji, whose house is initially locked on the far FAR right of dirt mouth, beyond the well. Give him the egg and he summons your shade in front of you to kill. Ritual complete. Geo returned, soul restored.

[☆hedge witch☆ @ *dying* <3]

Arguably you aren't exploring or progressing at all if you can't remember how you got to where you were :P The compass should be the single most unnecessary charm even on the first play through

[abbix13]

Honestly wouldn't be so bad if your shade didn't hurt you as well. Just lost over 1000 geo because I was fighting my shade near a sign and, since up is interact as well, died because my knight read a sign instead of attacking upwards toward the shade

[D YellowMadness]

Originally posted by OHNOESORIOES:

Arguably you aren't exploring or progressing at all if you can't remember how you got to where you were :P The compass should be the single most unnecessary charm even on the first play through

Not my fault the first area was a single-colored cave where most of the rooms look the same & there seem to be 3 or 4 vertical shafts but the map only shows 2.

Originally posted by abbix13:

Honestly wouldn't be so bad if your shade didn't hurt you as well. Just lost over 1000 geo because I was fighting my shade near a sign and, since up is interact as well, died because my knight read a sign instead of attacking upwards toward the shade

Fighting my shade hasn't been a problem so far but that situation you described sounds super lame. That's the problem with a system where an enemy can show up pretty much anywhere. It's gonna cause something unfair sometimes.

[diaskeaus]

Originally posted by D YellowMadness:

Originally posted by abbix13:

Honestly wouldn't be so bad if your shade didn't hurt you as well. Just lost over 1000 geo because I was fighting my shade near a sign and, since up is interact as well, died because my knight read a sign instead of attacking upwards toward the shade

Fighting my shade hasn't been a problem so far but that situation you described sounds super lame. That's the problem with a system where an enemy can show up pretty much anywhere. It's gonna cause something unfair sometimes.

I've been told HK has a very strong Dark Souls design. In Dark Souls, when you die all your collected "currency" (similar to how Geo works in this game) just stays where you died. If you can manage to make it back to the collected souls without dying, then you can just reobtain your souls and continue on. Note I haven't played any Dark Souls game, but it seems like the only thing Hollow Knight throws into the mix is that your "souls" fight back. On the other hand, HK does make collecting your Geo a little easier, because when you die on bosses you can fight your shade before the boss encounter. The trick though is not dying until you get back to your shade, which generally speaking gets more difficult as the game progresses because of the platforming challenge.

I'm currently in Fungal area, and the platforming there after you obtain the Mistcloak is pretty tough. Not only are there poison pools, but enemies will launch heat-seeking bombs at you, so if their missiles miss you then you'll still get caught in the explosion.