Path of Pain is a black spot on a otherwise amazing game

[FELIX]

Edit: Since I originally wrote this post after several hours of furious struggle, I've decided to update it, as to more properly reflect my feelings on this piece of DLC.
If the devs do read the discussions, I would like to apologize; I do not want any of you to "get fired" from your own 2-man company, but maybe, just maybe step on a piece of Lego.

This is not why I bought the game. I bought it for the metroidvania-like exploration and combat. Not "I wanna be that guy" level of "platforming".At least we didn't pay for this DLC, it has ruined the whole game for me It has, for me, put a really bad mark on a otherwise very enjoyable game.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy tough challenges, but in games that are all about challenges. Not when a otherwise fantastic, exploration and combat based platformer, decides do be "difficult for difficulties sake". In my opinion, these kind of challenges belong on the main menu under "challenges", not as part of the main game.

And as the cherry on top, once I finally got through the last part I died at the boss since I only had one mask left, the game threw me back outside the Palace, forcing me to redo the whole thing. ♥♥♥♥. THAT!

Sure, it's "optional", but I loved the original game and I want to collect and beat everything.(I've now beaten PoP). But at least have the decency to respect my time and add a bench before the boss room. And why even have masks at this part? They serve no purpose since we can heal at each checkpoint, it's just a time sink and source of frustration having to constantly heal for no real reason.

[Exray]

Man, the Path of Pain is a hidden zone in one of the hardest zones of the game that the White Palace calls "Path of Pain", also it is COMPLEATLY optional, it doesn't adds %, it doesn't give you a item, it doesn't even have an achivement!

Also why it "Ruined the whole game"?
It is a compleatly optional area. And yeah you want to beat the true 107% but if it just doesn't entertain you, why you did it?

PoP is one of my favorite areas in the game, like the Trial of Fools did, it shown me how great can the plataforming with POGO be.

And I am getting upset with all the complains, I have fear because maybe Team Cherry wouldn't create a truly hard challenge in the next DLC or in the Hornet DLC.

[Miri Ryllis ミリス]

FELIX původně napsal:

After having cooled down a little and reading through everyones replies, I've decided to update my original post to better reflect my opinion in a more civilized manner..

The new post is much better yes. Hope i didnt come off as harsh when posting, i can understand the feel of being in the heat of frustration haha.

FELIX původně napsal:

The first half is a lot harder than any other platforming section in the game, but I still enjoyed it, the later half was just pure frustration. Artificial difficulty with the constant time sink of healing for no real reason.

Personally I found the entire thing a fair and enjoyable experience, sans the very end with the 2 Kingsmould. While it didn't really give me any trouble, I can easily see how it would others. No warning and if you dont know its there then you likely went into it with 4 masks at most.

The PoP will just have to be something that is divided among the community, one half thinking its fair and fun and the other that cant stand it.

[FELIX]

Midouri ミリ původně napsal:

The new post is much better yes. Hope i didnt come off as harsh when posting, i can understand the feel of being in the heat of frustration haha.

No worries, I should have known better than to vent frustration on forums while still raging.

Midouri ミリ původně napsal:

The PoP will just have to be something that is divided among the community...

Agreed :)

[Spectrum Legacy]

Path of pain changed the pace for me and refreshed the experience... think of it like a technical part of a racetrack, where you have to focus, keep good pace/timing and carve through it at the limit. Hamfisting simply won't do, nor raging. If you feel upset, do something else and return back later when you get better - that's exactly in the spirit of metroid-vanias!

I hope that team cherry will make more stuff like trials of fool and path of pain in their future expansions. Would be a darn shame if they didn't.

[FELIX]

Spectrum Legacy původně napsal:

If you feel upset, do something else and return back later when you get better - that's exactly in the spirit of metroid-vanias!

Well, returning later would mean having to redo the previous parts since there are no benches. Sure it would probably not take me as long the next time, but at that point, that was not an option.

I'll agree that it's in the spirit of metroid-vanias as far as "returning to previous areas with new abilities and a fresh mind" goes. But this wasn't really like that since I had everything else unlocked, it was just a pure "keep grinding til you make it".

[hanehiko]

FELIX původně napsal:

I'll agree that it's in the spirit of metroid-vanias as far as "returning to previous areas with new abilities and a fresh mind" goes. But this wasn't really like that since I had everything else unlocked, it was just a pure "keep grinding til you make it".

Fresh mind is really important.
I am certain that almost nowhere in the game you need to rely on jump/dash reset, while PoP treats it as the main way to move around. When you accept this and let yourself have fun learning "to walk" again, you can't even understand how is this location related to "pain".

[Dr. Faustus]

FELIX původně napsal:

Edit: Since I originally wrote this post after several hours of furious struggle, I've decided to update it, as to more properly reflect my feelings on this piece of DLC.
If the devs do read the discussions, I would like to apologize; I do not want any of you to "get fired" from your own 2-man company, but maybe, just maybe step on a piece of Lego.

This is not why I bought the game. I bought it for the metroidvania-like exploration and combat. Not "I wanna be that guy" level of "platforming".At least we didn't pay for this DLC, it has ruined the whole game for me It has, for me, put a really bad mark on a otherwise very enjoyable game.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy tough challenges, but in games that are all about challenges. Not when a otherwise fantastic, exploration and combat based platformer, decides do be "difficult for difficulties sake". In my opinion, these kind of challenges belong on the main menu under "challenges", not as part of the main game.

And as the cherry on top, once I finally got through the last part I died at the boss since I only had one mask left, the game threw me back outside the Palace, forcing me to redo the whole thing. ♥♥♥♥. THAT!

Sure, it's "optional", but I loved the original game and I want to collect and beat everything.(I've now beaten PoP). But at least have the decency to respect my time and add a bench before the boss room. And why even have masks at this part? They serve no purpose since we can heal at each checkpoint, it's just a time sink and source of frustration having to constantly heal for no real reason.

If I had a penny for every Dark Souls post just like this, I'd be too rich to read this crap.

[arejang]

Hey go easy. This is clearly one of the harder sections of this game and he needed to vent. He's beaten it now, so there's no need for aggression.

[FELIX]

SPiFF původně napsal:

If I had a penny for every Dark Souls post just like this, I'd be too rich to read this crap.

You are missing the point, Dark Souls is a game that's "all about pain", therefore that's fine. Hollw Knight isn't.

[Exray]

FELIX původně napsal:

SPiFF původně napsal:

If I had a penny for every Dark Souls post just like this, I'd be too rich to read this crap.

You are missing the point, Dark Souls is a game that's "all about pain", therefore that's fine. Hollw Knight isn't.

Dark Souls a "all bout pain" game?
Dark Souls isn't a "all about pain" game.
I wanna be the guy is a "all about pain game".
Dark Souls is a challenging fair game, it is not just hard for been hard.

[GSandSDS]

Midouri ミリ původně napsal:

Just because a game isn't a hellhole of difficulty does not mean it cannot add intense difficulty to itself. It is there for those who want the extra challenge. It is the "Pain of PAIN." It is a tiny, entirely optional piece of content you do not need to do. You said it yourself. The very fact you say it ruins it for you, and even dare say to a 2-person team one should be FIRED in a game you claim to LOVE just makes you look ridiculous

I think here lies the problem. The Path of Pain is not needed to "win" the game, but it's not completely optional either. It ties into the main story and answers an (at least in my opinion) important question: Why did the original Hollow Knight fail? For the – I don't know – 98 % of the players who are not able to win the Path of Pain the game leaves behind a plot hole.

My personal experience:
For me the Path of Pain is terrible. I am still not able to go past the first section with the wall and the first two buzz saws and first flying enemies – after two days with 20 hours of gameplay (not total gameplay, only Path of Pain). And the worst part is: I don't know what I am doing wrong. The protagonist seems to act with an own will. Sometimes he is doing what I want, sometimes not. For example: Sometimes he does a double jump from the wall, sometimes he does not. Sometimes he jumps far away from the wall, sometimes he just does a small jump – and I don't know where I controlled him differently. Oh, and I don't think that my Xbox 360 controller is broken. It works completely fine with ofher games. So I think a part of the problem are the imprecise controls. They are not "that" broken, that the main game cannot be played. There they are okay, but if they are creating a ridiculously hard and completely unforgiving stage, then the controls really have to be perfect.

But I have to admit one thing, the Path of Pain stays true to his name: My fingers really hurt after all this time. And that is no joke.

[Spectrum Legacy]

GSandSDS původně napsal:

The protagonist seems to act with an own will. Sometimes he is doing what I want, sometimes not. For example: Sometimes he does a double jump from the wall, sometimes he does not. Sometimes he jumps far away from the wall, sometimes he just does a small jump – and I don't know where I controlled him differently. Oh, and I don't think that my Xbox 360 controller is broken. It works completely fine with ofher games. So I think a part of the problem are the imprecise controls. They are not "that" broken, that the main game cannot be played. There they are okay, but if they are creating a ridiculously hard and completely unforgiving stage, then the controls really have to be perfect.

But I have to admit one thing, the Path of Pain stays true to his name: My fingers really hurt after all this time. And that is no joke.

Are you using analogue input/thumbstick by any chance? I would suspect this could happen, since analogue input is then translated into pure on/off digital input past some treshold (deadzone), since in HK there is no benefit it seems for analogue input. I.e. whether you push the stick halfway or fully makes no difference in the movement of player's character. It simply is equal to on/off button, full run to full stop. That's why I played HK both on keyboard and gamepad, but using a Dpad instead. Despite my gamepad has no spiking on its potentiometers, I still find thumbstick less precise and in this case, there is no benefit of using it. Just my opinion ofc.

Have you tried dpad and/or keyboard?

[GSandSDS]

Spectrum Legacy původně napsal:

Are you using analogue input/thumbstick by any chance? I would suspect this could happen, since analogue input is then translated into pure on/off digital input past some treshold (deadzone), since in HK there is no benefit it seems for analogue input. I.e. whether you push the stick halfway or fully makes no difference in the movement of player's character. It simply is equal to on/off button, full run to full stop. That's why I played HK both on keyboard and gamepad, but using a Dpad instead. Despite my gamepad has no spiking on its potentiometers, I still find thumbstick less precise and in this case, there is no benefit of using it. Just my opinion ofc.

Have you tried dpad and/or keyboard?

I am usually using the d-pad aka digital controls. But in the last two of the 20 hours I began to experiment with alternative control methods and different ways of holding the control pad. The keyboard is really not working for me in this situation (it is also not recommended by the makers of the game). I also tried the analog stick, but this did not help either. The analog stick actually made it even worse since you have to move greater distances with your finger.

During the 20 hours I also encountered a strange bug in the game. I only happened twice so far (on time in the regular gameplay and one time during the Path of Pain). When the bug happened I was able to make horizontal dash jumps to the left, but everytime when I tried to make one to the right then the protagonist dashed vertically to the ground. This happened independantly to the charms I were using and only went away after a restart of the game. Of course this does not explain the 20 hours of pure failire without any progress but it does not help having faith in the game controls either.

[Spectrum Legacy]

Yes, thumbstick is definitely the least precise option from those 3. Depends on gamepad model, dpad is either equal or worse than kb (since you do have fingers on all 4 buttons at all times (or 3, depeding on the layout), vs e.g. thumb only on x360 dpad, which is rather imprecise and mushy in its stock form. Was the very first thing I modded out on it for that reason.

What you can do, is logging inputs as you play and check whether dpad is doing exact inputs which you are trying to perform ingame. Maybe it's sending also adjacent input at the same time, or acting inconsistently at times. That way you can tell whether it's you or hardware at very least.

[FELIX]

GSandSDS původně napsal:

The Path of Pain is not needed to "win" the game, but it's not completely optional either.

The protagonist seems to act with an own will. Sometimes he is doing what I want, sometimes not. [...] Sometimes he jumps far away from the wall, sometimes he just does a small jump – and I don't know where I controlled him differently.

My fingers really hurt after all this time. And that is no joke.

This is the way I view it, it's optional, but not really.

I also had this issue, using a 360 controller. Sometimes I would bounce really high of the buzz saws, sending me into the ceiling with spikes or other hazards. The inconsistency was really annoying. I've encountered this with some bosses too when you pogo on their heads.

I still have a small blister on my left thumb from Path of Pain.