The White Palace is terrible

[texasgoldrush]

Seriously, its so out of place in this game with a huge spike in difficulty in its platforming sections. Its simply put, not fun, even when I beaten it. Its so bad that I will probably use a trainer to shortcut if I play through the game again.

Either redesign the palace or add a slow version of it.

It easily wins the worst level to a great game award this year.

[texasgoldrush]

Originally posted by Epic_Caesura:

I think a lot of folks are missing two bits of information that make White Palace a ton easier:
1) Several charm combinations can give you unlimited health, so death becomes irrelevant.
2) You can downstrike to bounce off spikes and blades, which also resets your double-jump (and charms to increase your blade length make doing so quite easy).
With those two things in mind, very few parts of White Palace (the main path, at least) are especially difficult. And if you watch a YouTube video to find the shortcuts, it gets even easier. I mean, it's never *easy*, but if you can get this far, you shouldn't be hitting a wall here.

I didn't miss it, I used it.

It still doesn't make it fun, and it still a difficulty spike. Once again, if the normal games hardest platforming section is 4th level difficulty and the White Palace is 10th level, thats simply put, a problem.

There is a reason why top endgame Mario levels work, like the Final Run in Mario Galaxy 2 or Champions Road in Mario 3D World, is because they build up towards it, Hollow Knight fails to do this. Its a wall slam, and it fails to capture the Metroidvania balance of the rest of the game.

[Highwayman300]

I actively use cheats with every playthrough after the first time I went through it. Even with charms like hiveblood and speed running skis, it still took me several hours to beat. The platforming challenges often felt cheap and almost impossible to beat, requiring near perfect pixel alignment and either hours of muscle memory or immense reflexes to go through. Nothing in the rest of the game even compares, and worst of all, it isn't really optional. You must go through it if you want to experience a lot of the "true" content.
Not even the bosses, which are supposed to be the true challenge of the game even compare. Trial of fools took me a total of two tries, although I was almost fully upgraded (Missing a pair of maks and vessels plus nail upgrade) None of the bosses took more than 2 tries, the exception being Radiance with 3.
When most of the game areas (Even Queen's gardens didn't gave me any problem) and bosses don't even compare in difficulty to a non-optional area of the game, you know there is something wrong with the level. It feels comparable to Nightmare King Grimm from the latest update, where constant repetition is required in order to go through it. Both felt completely unsatisfying when beaten and were more of a relief of not having to deal with them in a while rather than giving a sense of accomplishment. For some reason, Team Cherry got fixated with difficulty (Probably from hearing people talking about difficulty as a selling point when the game wasn't particularly difficult to beat to begin with) and chose to go for the usual route of artificial difficulty, where repetition is key.
At the very least the "path of pain" is entirely optional and only gives people bragging rights, although why would someone put lore behind something that most people who can achieve the challenge don't care nor comprehend much about.
If they made the entirety of the white palace optional, it wouldn't really be much of a problem for most people.

[SonicBoomNFA]

Originally posted by Highwayman300:

I actively use cheats with every playthrough after the first time I went through it. Even with charms like hiveblood and speed running skis, it still took me several hours to beat. The platforming challenges often felt cheap and almost impossible to beat, requiring near perfect pixel alignment and either hours of muscle memory or immense reflexes to go through. Nothing in the rest of the game even compares, and worst of all, it isn't really optional. You must go through it if you want to experience a lot of the "true" content.
Not even the bosses, which are supposed to be the true challenge of the game even compare. Trial of fools took me a total of two tries, although I was almost fully upgraded (Missing a pair of maks and vessels plus nail upgrade) None of the bosses took more than 2 tries, the exception being Radiance with 3.
When most of the game areas (Even Queen's gardens didn't gave me any problem) and bosses don't even compare in difficulty to a non-optional area of the game, you know there is something wrong with the level. It feels comparable to Nightmare King Grimm from the latest update, where constant repetition is required in order to go through it. Both felt completely unsatisfying when beaten and were more of a relief of not having to deal with them in a while rather than giving a sense of accomplishment. For some reason, Team Cherry got fixated with difficulty (Probably from hearing people talking about difficulty as a selling point when the game wasn't particularly difficult to beat to begin with) and chose to go for the usual route of artificial difficulty, where repetition is key.
At the very least the "path of pain" is entirely optional and only gives people bragging rights, although why would someone put lore behind something that most people who can achieve the challenge don't care nor comprehend much about.
If they made the entirety of the white palace optional, it wouldn't really be much of a problem for most people.

It took you hours to get through White Palace? Tf, dude?

[Miri Ryllis ミリス]

Originally posted by Highwayman300:

Not even the bosses, which are supposed to be the true challenge of the game even compare. Trial of fools took me a total of two tries, although I was almost fully upgraded (Missing a pair of maks and vessels plus nail upgrade) None of the bosses took more than 2 tries, the exception being Radiance with 3.
When most of the game areas (Even Queen's gardens didn't gave me any problem) and bosses don't even compare in difficulty to a non-optional area of the game, you know there is something wrong with the level.

You do realize what you just said is subjective and does not help your argument at all? Everyone has different skill sets. Some can clear it first go, others take eons. Many people struggle to beat those bosses, taking dozens of attempts, even with upgrades. If you're trying to say that because you're good at the bosses you should be good at WP as well, and since you're not its bad design, I have news for you. All bosses took me 1-3 tries as well (mostly just 1), and I was able to clear WP in about 30 minutes, despite hardly touched platformers/metroidvanias in my life. All because I took what the game taught me and used it. At the same time though, the mini-boss guarding Vengeful Soul's upgrade in CIty of Tears took me 100 minutes to beat. so since all the bosses AND the WP are comparably easy for me than that mini-boss, means he's poorly designed by your logic, right?

Originally posted by Highwayman300:

The platforming challenges often felt cheap and almost impossible to beat, requiring near perfect pixel alignment and either hours of muscle memory or immense reflexes to go through.

I think you're mistaking the Path of Pain for the WP.

The WP is as optional as the rest of the game sans-dreamers is, so using the "its not option" excuse to shame its difficulty falls flat even regarding the "true" ending.

It is absoluely no excuse to nerf/change something that is perfectly fine as it is just because you're struggling. The White Palace is, agreeably, a bit of a platform difficulty spike. But it is still completely fair if you bothered at all to experiment and learn. The game gave you many opportunities to learn the mechanics. It isn't perfect, but it isn't terrible.

[Ben Hurr]

Nah, WP was bad specifically because they went full SMB in a game that has no SMB ♥♥♥♥. It's like dropping some extreme scat scene in what is supposed to be a vanilla porn.

It also doesn't help that the game's story builds WP up as this amazing, legendary, nigh mythical place lost to time that potentially answers many of the game's important mysteries; but what you get is some weird, gamey, white DS1 Lost Izalith, only full of saws instead of blinding lava.

But at least all 5 guys into platform masocore get thrown a bone, I guess?

[SonicBoomNFA]

Originally posted by Ben Hurr:

But at least all 5 guys into platform masocore get thrown a bone, I guess?

It wasn't even that level of difficulty; Jesus Christ. I beat Path of Pain in less time than it took me to beat Nightmare King Grimm; clearly White Palace is not that huge of a difficulty spike.

[Highwayman300]

Originally posted by Midouri ミリ:

It is absoluely no excuse to nerf/change something that is perfectly fine as it is just because you're struggling. The White Palace is, agreeably, a bit of a platform difficulty spike. But it is still completely fair if you bothered at all to experiment and learn. The game gave you many opportunities to learn the mechanics. It isn't perfect, but it isn't terrible.

And I thought blind fanboyism and complete retardation where almost near death thanks to terrible business practices. Good to see some complete morons are out there still pretending to know something about game design.
The fact that it took most people little to no effort with the rest of the game, the bosses and other "challenges" but this specific place, already tells you there is something wrong with it. You can't just call an entire game difficult because of some particular level or design error you made somewhere.
If you could spend a bit of time trying to comprehend what you said as well, you would notice that the white palace is absolutely terrible because nothing in the game compares to it. The game barely teaches you enough before dumping you into something that is absolutely required to reach the final ending.
If the game threw you some levels with hard platforming challenges before reaching the white palace, it would at least prepare you for the slog fest you will find inside. You simply never get to see any platforming areas even comparable to the ones found inside the white palace.
Again, if it wasn't entirely optional like the path of pain is, it wouldn't be utterly terrible.
No matter how much you like the game, blindly following and licking the remains of errors developers make just ends up making future works worse. Its clear that team cherry recognized their mistake and made "path of pain" an entirely optional area rather than something you needed to complete to unlock some sort of meaningful content.

[Almar]

I quite enjoyed it. It took what you learn throughout the game and added some new challenges to overcome, like any good game does.

[Ben Hurr]

Originally posted by Highwayman300:

Originally posted by Midouri ミリ:

gitgud stuff

more stuff, but insulting gitgud nerds

See it's badness goes even deeper than that; who is The White Palace and The Path of Pain even for? Metroidvania fans into lowkey platforming don't want it.

Looking on the opposite side, the folks that like platform pain are going to be utterly bored with the other 99.8% of the game. Why would the devs expect them to slog through 10-20hrs of game to get to the 10min section they actually want? Also if they were honest with it, it could have been much more insane.

WP is a thing because some idiots paid TeamCherry $34k during its kickstarter to add it, not because it was a good idea. So money over sense, I guess?

[Colonel Crossfire]

I actually loved the white palace and it wasn't all that difficult in my opinion.

[hanehiko]

Originally posted by Highwayman300:

The fact that it took most people little to no effort with the rest of the game, the bosses and other "challenges" but this specific place, already tells you there is something wrong with it. You can't just call an entire game difficult because of some particular level or design error you made somewhere.

Truly an over exaggeration, in its most pure form. I could say the same about Trial of Fools, and some might even agree about that.

Originally posted by Highwayman300:

The game barely teaches you enough before dumping you into something that is absolutely required to reach the final ending.

Can't quite remember, but isn't the only technique required is pogo-jump? IIRC, resetting jump/dash is helpful, but not essential.

[thorin.hannahs]

My first run through White Palace took me three hours in total. Path of Pain took me an hour and a half unfortunately. Those areas just took me back to classic Mega Man and Mega Man X situations which were instant death not we are going to spawn you on that platform try again. All in all this CP was much easier than what Hidden Dreams added (Lvl 10 Zote loses to NKG any day). I appreciate both platforming areas immensely; for going here is lvl 4 platforming and then suddenly here is lvl 10 platforming. What is wrong with difficulty spikes? I appreciate when devs lock rewards and content behind difficulty as well because then I earn my way.

[Miri Ryllis ミリス]

Originally posted by Highwayman300:

And I thought blind fanboyism and complete retardation where almost near death thanks to terrible business practices. Good to see some complete morons are out there still pretending to know something about game design.

It's like you didn't read what you quoted at all. Astounding. Please refrain from bashing yourself. I shouldn't bother replying, but.

Originally posted by Highwayman300:

The fact that it took most people little to no effort with the rest of the game, the bosses and other "challenges" but this specific place, already tells you there is something wrong with it. You can't just call an entire game difficult because of some particular level or design error you made somewhere.

Uh no, the entire game is difficult. Enemies are tough and platforming hazards are everywhere. Please tell me how you got "most people" no effort to do THE REST OF THE GAME (see: all optional stuff too) when only 33% of those who best the palace have even done that. The Trial of Fools is by far the hardest part of the game save for the GT content, even on subsequent runs which is why until GT it was feared to get 100% SS completion not because of the palace, but the ToF. If we are going to throw around "most people," note how "most people" on this thread are completely fine with the Palace as it is. Just because you and I didn't struggle too much does not mean it's cake. Get off your high horse.

Originally posted by Highwayman300:

If you could spend a bit of time trying to comprehend what you said as well, you would notice that the white palace is absolutely terrible because nothing in the game compares to it. The game barely teaches you enough before dumping you into something that is absolutely required to reach the final ending.

There does not need to be some amazing platforming challenge slightly easier than Palace to justify its difficulty. The game has quite a few small platforming challenges that test certain techniques that the palace utilizes, some optional some not. And so what if it's required for the true end? The true end SHOULD require the most effort and skill to unlock. That is what makes it a feat.

Originally posted by Highwayman300:

No matter how much you like the game, blindly following and licking the remains of errors developers make just ends up making future works worse. Its clear that team cherry recognized their mistake and made "path of pain" an entirely optional area rather than something you needed to complete to unlock some sort of meaningful content.

You're starting to get pretty pathetic, man. You should stop. Name calling and labeling people with a different opinion gets you nowhere.

And just an FYI, just like how the WP isn't optional for those who want to see the true end, the PoP isn't optional to lore junkies like me. The reward in there is seeped in meaning.

Originally posted by Ben Hurr:

Originally posted by Highwayman300:

more stuff, but insulting gitgud nerds

Over 9000 stuff

Why does it have to be so black and white? Why would you think someone plays a game solely for a single tiny reason (all the time)?

[Shard of Manus]

This is my second ever 2D Platformer, so I'm certainly no Metroidvania fan, nor am I some skilled pro at platforming... but the White Palace wasn't that hard.

Yeah, I struggled in some places for a couple minutes, but when you get the timing down it's easy. There's plenty of checkpoints, so if you take damage you lose seconds of effort and the right Gems make it so you can heal all the damage you receive.

There were a couple parts that made me think, "Oh for goodness sake, just let me through" but upon completion (and lowered salt levels) I thought the White Palace was great. It was challenging, but not ridiculously hard. It took time, but not ages (about 30 minutes for me). It honed my skills to make platforming elsewhere a breeze; and lastly, it was fun.

Aggravating enough, but not so much that I wasn't enjoying myself - because every time I passed an obstacle that was giving me trouble (there were only a few 'tough-ish' parts I spent a couple minutes on), I felt relieved and triumphant. It's a good feeling.

White Palace is a great example of how to reward perseverance. It's a level that maintains a moderate level of difficulty on platforming, with the occasional sequence that is much harder - and these are the sequences that give you that triumphant feeling once beaten. I thought the whole place was very well designed.

[Chami]

I always thought Hollow Knight was inspired by classic games where it was "try, try, try, try, try, try, try, try, try, try, try, try, try until you beat it."