Hollow Knight gets my recommendation, but just barely.

[XigXagXog]

Team Cherry's art department deserves a raise, because the rest of the company is riding their coattails all the way to the bank.

It has to be said: this is a gorgeous game. The in-game graphics literally look like other games' box art. The music and sound effects are also top-notch, and the (somewhat minimal) story is charming and interesting. This game has atmosphere in spades. Unfortunately, the designers and programmers did not hold up their end of the bargain.

Either through inexperience or malice, the game designers decided on an extreme anti-player ethos. Hollow Knight trolls the player, to a degree I haven't seen since the bad old days before computer games had save points.

To list but one example, consider the placement of the player's "corpse." When you reach zero health, all of your money is taken away, your maximum mana pool is temporarily reduced, and a hostile version of your avatar is spawned in the room where you died. Defeating this enemy results in the return of your money and your maximum mana capacity. (Your corpse scales in health and spell ability along with your avatar, so defeating it is non-trivial.)

If you die again before recovering your corpse, all of the money you originally had is permanently lost. Therefore, if you die on the way back to the thing that killed you, which frequently happens, you lose all your cash.

I find this to be an interesting if harsh mechanic (although one that the game makes no effort to contextualize - why is my own corpse trying to kill me?). The big problem lies with the implementation.

Early on, when I died, my corpse spawned at a position between the restore point and the thing that killed me, so that I could defeat it before attempting the combat/jumping puzzle again. As I got farther into the game, however, my corpse began spawning either on top of or behind the thing that killed me.

In the case of a boss fight, this means you have to defeat your corpse simultaneously with defeating the boss. Usually, you take a few licks from the boss during the frantic seconds it takes to kill your corpse, putting you at a disadvantage for the rest of the fight. In the case of a jumping puzzle, your corpse will often spawn in such a way as to make completing the puzzle actually impossible.

While there is a vendor who can summon your corpse to you for convenient "self-murder," her shop is so far off the beaten path that the optimal solution, sadly enough, is to deliberately kill yourself in a more convenient spot. This sacrifices any money you possessed, but it's far easier and less aggravating than the alternative. This kind of immersion-breaking metagaming screams "insufficient playtesting."

Others have posted in-depth about the distance you generally must travel to get back to a boss or jumping puzzle after a failed attempt, but it's worth noting that the ratio of travel time to combat time (typically ending in player death) is wildly unbalanced. Why not put a checkpoint right before the tough part?

In addition to the player-hostile design elements, Hollow Knight promises an experience that its programming simply does not deliver. I understand that the game is supposed to be challenging, but I want that challenge to come from tests of skill, not tests of luck. I'm not sure what kind of supercomputer the devs tested it on, but it's a huge disappointment to experience so many dropped control inputs and massive lag spikes, especially during boss fights and jumping puzzles. The razor-thin margins for error in these sections do not pair well with the apparently inadequate interface code.

I got the game to run noticeably smoother by following the recommendations of another poster and setting the video options to windowed mode at the lowest resolution with v-sync turned off, but the more "bells and whistles" rooms still generate tragic lag spikes. (It should be noted that these lag spikes don't just lag the game - the game is still running "underneath" the lag, so that after the screen freezes, everything jumps to a new position, robbing the player of any opportunity to react.)

This may sound like a negative review, and it mostly is, but let's be honest here. The devs won the lottery with the support they got from their artists, and it's frustrating that the rest of the game doesn't live up to that level of excellence.

[JapanGamer29]

Damos eredeti hozzászólása:

You mentionned Super Mario Wii U and other relatively casual games as your main recent experiences gaming. Those games are notorious for targeting a very large "family" audience and offering very little challenge as well as almost zero punishment for failing.

That might apply to some of the games, but Donkey Kong Country Tropical Freeze is considered very difficult. If you haven't played it you really should. I found this article on the topic:

"PopMatters" eredeti hozzászólása:

Normally when writing about video games it isn’t necessary to flash any “gamer credentials” to show that I’m good at video games. Often times the ideas surrounding and inhabiting a game are disconnected from the technical skills required to play, but in order to review Donkey Kong Country: Tropical Freeze, I’m going to need to display some street cred. I’m a pretty good gamer. I’ve beaten Dark Souls and Super Meat Boy multiple times and don’t consider them hard games. I’ve beaten The Binding of Isaac so often that a “mom kill” isn’t an achievement. If I’m given an option, I usually choose the “hard” difficulty in a game to make things interesting. Regular games like Super Mario 3D World, The Legend of Zelda: Wind Waker, Half-Life 2, and Pikmin 3 are cakewalks for me. I’m not the greatest gamer, but I have the technical skills required to play any game and assess its difficulty.

That said, Donkey Kong Country: Tropical Freeze is a very hard game, so difficult that it reminds me of Battletoads (though it’s not that difficult). A lot of reviews of Dark Souls say that it hearkens back to “old school” video games, and I’m here to tell you that Tropical Freeze is as “old school” as it gets, while also being beautiful, engaging, and exciting to play.

The game is ruthlessly difficult....

I whined and complained about that game, too. But I stuck with it and finished it, and I'll do the same with Hollow Knight.

[Green Knight]

Honestly, Hollow Knight IS difficult. It's not something you can really just win if you're not able to pick up on its tricks, or the appropriate levels of cheese, early on. But it's a learning experience. Eventually you'll figure it out and you'll get to explore the world as you should be able to, and then it becomes glorious fun.

[Hursti]

Dragonbound eredeti hozzászólása:

Hursti eredeti hozzászólása:

i think its the "cutie wootzie"-art style (the characters) of this game that might end up hurting it a little, since it draws in a certain type of crowd who almost always suck but want to play their "cute" games, and start to rage when they find some challenge.

I dont know do you have any idea how many j games there are that are super hard with cutsey characters?

i think i do, and those games, too, have this problem. lets say like touhou that gets its share of "ooh its so cute .... wait a minute, i died in the first stage, wtf?!"-crowd. but i give it to japenese games, since that art style is the norm in that part of the world. this game on the other hand, couldve used more gritty and dark style (lets say something like a mix of what already is and darkest dungeon) imo. less of these anime kawaiii cutie cutie-people.

and no, im not s***ting on anime.

[MickeyRooney'sLeftHook]

Hollow Knight is certainly challenging, but there are only very few instances where i would call it outright trolling. Like for example every time it kills off a character you've come to know and love. Most infamously what happens after you collect all the grubs. Or in my case Myla, the poor little miner girl. Now that is true trolling.

The boss fights though can be managed with the proper upgrades and equipment. Only the dream nail bosses and laser dude 2.0 are a true pain to beat. Particularly Lost Kin made me cringe at first, so much so that i decided to leave it for end-game and just go exploring some more instead. And guess what? You eventually get an item, Shade Cloak, that makes that boss a cinge. I simply wasn't ready back when i tried to fight that boss so it was entirely my own fault that i failed. And after all in all 30 attempts and trying out every possible charm combination i did eventually triumph. The lesson here is don't fight bosses or go to areas you are not supposed to or of course you're going to have a hard time.

And the death mechanic itself i don't find all that punishing. Mainly because the game throws Geo at you any chance it gets anyway. About halfway through i couldn't even find anything to spend all my cash on anymore. Agree that backtracking sucks though, would one bench right in front of every boss room have been too much to ask for?

Also, as for death shades being in areas difficult to reach, that happened to me as well. Shade hanging out right between spikes. So yeah I too went with the "go get killed on purpose in an easier area" solution before i learned what rancid eggs do. Yeah you lose your Geo but as i said, Geo is overrated.

And as for the controls, gotta give it to the OP there were very few instances where i didn't feel like my button input registered properly. Could be my controller's fault, i dunno. But except for those rare times i found the controls to be very pleasant and fluid. Btw Downwards strike may not be as integral as in say Shovel Knight or Rogue Legacy but i highly recommend mastering it early. Makes bosses much more manageable.

[Awakened Gamer]

Damos eredeti hozzászólása:

I actually chuckled when I read his comment about you being a little spoiled because it's so insightful and its actually the most helpful thing someone could tell you if you are willing to receive it!

And you shouldnt take it an an insult either because like he said its not your fault. Take it rather as a key to understand why your have a harder time than the average to appreciate the challenge that Hollow Knight is throwing at you... simply because its very different both in design and target audience than the games you played in the past!

You mentionned Super Mario Wii U and other relatively casual games as your main recent experiences gaming. Those games are notorious for targeting a very large "family" audience and offering very little challenge as well as almost zero punishment for failing. You've got your 50+ lives and infinte continues, and if you can't beat the (not too hard) boss, Luigi comes magically on his cloud to save the day. Or you pay 99 cents and a huge eagle kills all the pigs and end the level for you..

It might avoid you frustration in a very short term perspective, but victory without risk means triumph without glory!

To quote the creator of Super Meat Boy: "Video games are exercises in learning and growing. The designer acts as the teacher, giving the player problems that escalate in difficulty, hoping their course will help them learn as they go, get better, and feel good about what they achieve."

With your gaming background, its normal to feel a bit too much out of your comfort zone at first with a game that don't compromise for maximum market penetration. A freedom that sadly is almost exclusive to indie games nowadays. But you shouldn't take that frustration as a sign of bad design because the game does exactly what it intends to do, and quite brilliantly on top of that.

You re in good hands imo. Just stick with it, accept the challenge, try new things and ways to approach problems, and you'll be just fine eventually!

So true about mario games atleast the new ones, they are very targeted towards instant gratification, they are no doubt very fun platformers, for example I loved galaxy because of the unique mechanics and space theme but there is a time and place for those kinds of games as well as more challenging games like this one.

[Awakened Gamer]

CreamyNotCrunchy eredeti hozzászólása:

Hollow Knight is certainly challenging, but there are only very few instances where i would call it outright trolling. Like for example every time it kills off a character you've come to know and love. Most infamously what happens after you collect all the grubs. Or in my case Myla, the poor little miner girl. Now that is true trolling.

The boss fights though can be managed with the proper upgrades and equipment. Only the dream nail bosses and laser dude 2.0 are a true pain to beat. Particularly Lost Kin made me cringe at first, so much so that i decided to leave it for end-game and just go exploring some more instead. And guess what? You eventually get an item, Shade Cloak, that makes that boss a cinge. I simply wasn't ready back when i tried to fight that boss so it was entirely my own fault that i failed. And after all in all 30 attempts and trying out every possible charm combination i did eventually triumph. The lesson here is don't fight bosses or go to areas you are not supposed to or of course you're going to have a hard time.

And the death mechanic itself i don't find all that punishing. Mainly because the game throws Geo at you any chance it gets anyway. About halfway through i couldn't even find anything to spend all my cash on anymore. Agree that backtracking sucks though, would one bench right in front of every boss room have been too much to ask for?

Also, as for death shades being in areas difficult to reach, that happened to me as well. Shade hanging out right between spikes. So yeah I too went with the "go get killed on purpose in an easier area" solution before i learned what rancid eggs do. Yeah you lose your Geo but as i said, Geo is overrated.

And as for the controls, gotta give it to the OP there were very few instances where i didn't feel like my button input registered properly. Could be my controller's fault, i dunno. But except for those rare times i found the controls to be very pleasant and fluid. Btw Downwards strike may not be as integral as in say Shovel Knight or Rogue Legacy but i highly recommend mastering it early. Makes bosses much more manageable.

What? Ok now I am scared to save all the grubs.

[アゼム]

This is such a nonissue I can't even begin to imagine why it's such a major gripe for you

[Szaal]

Dragonbound eredeti hozzászólása:

What? Ok now I am scared to save all the grubs.

Just do it. It's a hillarious horror. xD

[Peppe Le point]

Damos eredeti hozzászólása:

Wow, that doesn't relate AT ALL to my experience with the game.

1) Entire game was made by a huge team of.... 3 people (4 if you include the music composer)

2) I've never felt trolled by the game. It has clear and consistent game design mechanics that give the players all the rules and tools to adapt to them.

...

4) You make a lot of claims that are simply false. What on Earth are you talking about when you say your corpse respawn in a spot that make a "jumping puzzle" impossible to complete? Also the vendor that can summon your soul back is not "far off the beaten path", it's right next to the Dirtmouth Stag Station, allowing for fast travels.

...


So yeah, I think the mechanics are well-balanced and definitely not trolling the player. Like any open-world non-linear game, the game gives you a lot of freedom and trust you to make good use of it. But it won't be able (or neither it should) to stop you if you rush without anticipation.

Anyone is entitled to their opinion, but making false claims mixed with overly dramatic statements ("screaming insufficient playtesting") doesn't help to take you seriously tbh.

The framerate drops and input lag are a real issue. I don't have a "supercomputer", I have a 5 years old average laptop and the game runs just fine (55-60 fps) in the current build, the trials of fools being the only exception. So once again, you are being overly dramatic, but I do hope they improve that in future patches!

You paint a glowing picture of the game when I encountered similar issues. There is a lot of inconsistency with some of the design elements that bog down the gameplay. Exploring the environment will often take you on wild tangents through the map, and this can cause frustration due to the loss of progress the player recieves. For example. The seemingly random and inconnvenient placement of the some of the NPC's despite the fact that there is a hub area (the "soul" retriever, the special item merchant, and the skill merchant come to mind). I had a point where I literally did not see a bench for 20 minutes, and to access the nearest bench was a 5-6 minute walk.

The game is pretty. it is fun. Its not perfect. We shouldnt paint the picture that it is somehow completely balanced and fun. Its a good game that has some serious design flaws in the mid game.

[MickeyRooney'sLeftHook]

Peppe Le point eredeti hozzászólása:

The game is pretty. it is fun. Its not perfect. We shouldnt paint the picture that it is somehow completely balanced and fun. Its a good game that has some serious design flaws in the mid game.

Yeeeeah gotta say for me it barely misses the "perfect" rank of videogames. Starting with the fact that there's more than one ending which is only justified because it's so very, very inspired by Dark Souls/Bloodbourne. Zero reason to have more than one ending and to make bosses seem optional but PSYCH! not really optional if you wanna meet the true final boss. And making those bosses just a harder recycled version of previous bosses is bulls**t. Recycled bosses in general is never ever everrrrr a good design choice. It's a net negative and nothing will convince me otherwise.

Also, White Castle? Get outta here with your Meatboy nonsense. Why is my Metroidvania suddenly a platformer goshdangit.

[HighLanderPony]

Peppe Le point eredeti hozzászólása:

...

That's the point of a Metroidvania. Figuring ♥♥♥♥ out and wandering aimlessly for a while till you do so.

[Szaal]

Peppe Le point eredeti hozzászólása:

We shouldnt paint the picture that it is somehow completely balanced and fun. Its a good game that has some serious design flaws in the mid game.

The imbalance at here is one of the reasons that makes this game interesting, IMO.
It's been a long time for a game that totally pisses their players off without using a difficulty slider.

[Hursti]

totally pisses their players off? ... ehhh.... wtf? i smiled whole way through this, and ended wanting more. somehow it seems most players atleast here in the steam forums are just plain BAD, just really bad players. nothing wrong about the difficulty of this game. and it cant even be labeled as "hard" imo, nowhere near the difficulty of your generic souls-game for example (unless youre using guides and min-max builds, but that beats the whole purpose of any game). what are these "serious design flaws" some of you keep talking about? some people...

[Awakened Gamer]

Peppe Le point eredeti hozzászólása:

Damos eredeti hozzászólása:

Wow, that doesn't relate AT ALL to my experience with the game.

1) Entire game was made by a huge team of.... 3 people (4 if you include the music composer)

2) I've never felt trolled by the game. It has clear and consistent game design mechanics that give the players all the rules and tools to adapt to them.

...

4) You make a lot of claims that are simply false. What on Earth are you talking about when you say your corpse respawn in a spot that make a "jumping puzzle" impossible to complete? Also the vendor that can summon your soul back is not "far off the beaten path", it's right next to the Dirtmouth Stag Station, allowing for fast travels.

...


So yeah, I think the mechanics are well-balanced and definitely not trolling the player. Like any open-world non-linear game, the game gives you a lot of freedom and trust you to make good use of it. But it won't be able (or neither it should) to stop you if you rush without anticipation.

Anyone is entitled to their opinion, but making false claims mixed with overly dramatic statements ("screaming insufficient playtesting") doesn't help to take you seriously tbh.

The framerate drops and input lag are a real issue. I don't have a "supercomputer", I have a 5 years old average laptop and the game runs just fine (55-60 fps) in the current build, the trials of fools being the only exception. So once again, you are being overly dramatic, but I do hope they improve that in future patches!

You paint a glowing picture of the game when I encountered similar issues. There is a lot of inconsistency with some of the design elements that bog down the gameplay. Exploring the environment will often take you on wild tangents through the map, and this can cause frustration due to the loss of progress the player recieves. For example. The seemingly random and inconnvenient placement of the some of the NPC's despite the fact that there is a hub area (the "soul" retriever, the special item merchant, and the skill merchant come to mind). I had a point where I literally did not see a bench for 20 minutes, and to access the nearest bench was a 5-6 minute walk.

The game is pretty. it is fun. Its not perfect. We shouldnt paint the picture that it is somehow completely balanced and fun. Its a good game that has some serious design flaws in the mid game.

That is just it, it is balanced if you explore the right areas, the game shines on not holding your hand this should of been clear in the first 2 hours people could of easily refunded they have no right to complain.

Your meant think hmmm perhaps there are abilities that will make these monsters easier or charms, I should explore somewhere else first.

[Damos]

JapanGamer29 eredeti hozzászólása:

That might apply to some of the games, but Donkey Kong Country Tropical Freeze is considered very difficult. If you haven't played it you really should

Hey man, thanks for the message! After reading it, I checked some let's play on youtube and it does sound amazing, not just because of its difficulty but the level design and platforming look ridiculously fun!

I would love to play it, unfortunately I don't own any Nintendo hardware. If I could find a used Wii U for cheap to play this one and Breath of The Wild though... that's very tempting :)

I whined and complained about that game, too. But I stuck with it and finished it, and I'll do the same with Hollow Knight.

Best of luck to you, I think you ll do just fine and more important have fun and reward along the way!
If you need some advices about something specific, feel free to add me!

CreamyNotCrunchy eredeti hozzászólása:

Starting with the fact that there's more than one ending which is only justified because it's so very, very inspired by Dark Souls/Bloodbourne.
Also, White Castle? Get outta here with your Meatboy nonsense. Why is my Metroidvania suddenly a platformer goshdangit.

This is the most absurd comment in the entire thread, by far, congrats!

Different endings existed WAY before Dark Souls, you're only displaying a total lack of video game culture here. Not to mention that HK true ending works thematically and narratively and serve as the real punch and conclusion to the story built from the first second.

If anything is optionnal, it would be the first "ending" (which is not really one if you understand the story). And it's obvious why they added it, not to copy your beloved Dark Souls, but to give some form of closure and conclusion to people who dont want to invest more than 10-15 hours in the game. But the real meat comes after that, it's absurd to say it's not justfied....

Btw, metroidvanias have always been platformers to a degree, which again you would know if you didn't think that videogames started with Dark Souls, sigh..

Peppe Le point eredeti hozzászólása:

Exploring the environment will often take you on wild tangents through the map, and this can cause frustration due to the loss of progress the player recieves. I had a point where I literally did not see a bench for 20 minutes, and to access the nearest bench was a 5-6 minute walk.

This is the non-linearity aspect that if not supported by good and smart design would indeed be a problem for most. But in the case Hollow Knight, it might be his biggest strength in my eyes.

That freedom given to the player around mid-game was actually very EMPOWERING for me and i think for many. I loved planning my next exploration down to hallownest and poundering my options according to my current abilities.

I never came back empty from those. At worst, yes i would only stumble upon a few hiddgen grubs, pale ore pieces, key, essence tree or newly opened one-sided walls shortcuts. All that while collecting a bit of geo on my way. Or maybe I just encountered a new NPC with no immediate value to me. YES, this is absolutely true..

But every time i had those rather slim pay off to my 20-30 minutes adventuring, the next one would be completely different. To each exploration its own story and pay off, sometimes small, sometimes big. Which is IMO where the game design started to really shine. Those out of nowhere "moments" breaking the pace of the adventure are what made HK such a memorable experience for me.

Think about it, without that big map with wild tangents waiting for you, you would have never :

got the surprise of falling hundreds of meters down into the deepnest while you thought you were just finishing exploring queen's gardens! Taking you completely out of your comfort zone into the unknown

heard that odd public clamor coming from a cave entrance next to an elevator, only to find out there was a collisseum into it with epic fights awaiting.

found that damn tramway pass that was eying you for a while and take it far east to discover the gorgeous Kingdom's Edge area

And the list goes on and on. That design philosophy made special moments feel earned and finished to completely engage me into the world and lore.

It made every treasure, path, collectible, shortcut or area found feel like i was the first one ever to set foot into them! Of course, it wasn't really the case, but the illusion of it was really perfect and i think something all metroidvanias aspire to but very few manage to convey with that consistency!

Peppe Le point eredeti hozzászólása:

The game is pretty. it is fun. Its not perfect. We shouldnt paint the picture that it is somehow completely balanced and fun. Its a good game that has some serious design flaws in the mid game.

.... says the guy with 4.9 hours playtime.
I'm sorry but being so affirmative under those conditions is ridiculous.
And this is where you lose me.

At first, i was really happy about how mature and interesting this discussion was, but now it's getting out of hands and spinning in circles indefinitely.

So it will be my last post here

I also personally think that it's time to let this thread die down. 100+ messages is already more than enough to cover it, everyone said their piece and I think Hollow Knight is versatile enough to disserve other topics of discussions than just this one.