Quotes of the Radiance & Lore (MAJOR SPOILERS):

[esco1979]

Since I'm very curious about the lore of this game, I decided to go thru the AGONY of using the dream needle against the Radiance. Until I saw what should be all of its dialogue (I spent a good 2 hours total hitting him with it and didn't see any others). It says some.... interesting stuff:

1)ANCIENT ENEMY
2)I DO NOT FEAR YOU
3)THE LIGHT CANNOT BE CONSUMED
4)LET ME BE FREE
5)DAWN WILL BREAK
6)I WILL NOT BE FORGOTTEN

Yes, they are in all caps like that.

This, coupled with what the Seer says when your dream needle hits 2400+, followed by the Wyrm (who is also the king; according to the seer) trying to seal the radiance, followed by your character being a creature of pure darkness from the void leads me to believe that the real bad guy.... is you.

Yes, the Radiance is responsible for the plague... but that only started after the king tried to usurp it as god and people started following him. It tried to creep back into the bug's minds to let them know, "Yes I do exist, yes I did create you all and yes I am your true god." And was blocked out because of people's blind faith in a king... their mind resisting this truth resulted in some nasty side effects inflicted on them (there is even an entry about an enemy that says that maybe the cause of the plague and the effect it had was something inside the bug's themselves). Possibly even being an intended punishment by the radiance for their in-graciousness towards it or even for their use of the soul in magic which it may NOT have been ok with. The soul seeming to be the light variant of magic, which would be something I'd assume would be the Radiance's power. While shade magic is of the abyss; the counterpart and enemy of the Radiance.

This leads to the king turning to the Radiance's ancient enemy: the creatures of darkness from the void. He uses the hollow knight as a vessel and convinces 3 others to act as keys to the place where the Hollow Knight will be locked away with the Radiance within (one of whom even takes steps so that she can be awakened eventually and ensure that the hero can reach the hollow knight and either repeat the cycle or slay the Radiance; either of which would be a winning scenario for the king). After doing this, he promptly seals off the away to the abyss too.

Which leaves one big question: where is the king? We can guess that the reason our character does what does is because of the mask he wears. Which was probably made by the Mask Maker upon the king's request and then placed onto countless Siblings from the Abyss. In the hopes that one of them would as I said above succeed in either renewing the seal or destroying the Radiance. Obviously by the # of corpses in the abyss, countless #'s of them fail for what seems like a LONG time before our character comes along.

Anyway, what does everybody else here think about this whole mess?

[esco1979]

Originally posted by Space King Veeg:

I still go for the whole "Wyrm immortality gambit gone terribly wrong/right" type of theory. Based on the one dream nail dialogue in the Fungal Core and the entire spiel of "No price too great, no mind to break, no will to bend" during the lil' flashback.

I'd be curious to hear more about that. Especially since we know some great disaster happened in hollow nest that not only caused them to close their gates but also may have destroyed the palace too.

[Insanitys Muse]

Originally posted by Space King Veeg:

I still go for the whole "Wyrm immortality gambit gone terribly wrong/right" type of theory. Based on the one dream nail dialogue in the Fungal Core and the entire spiel of "No price too great, no mind to break, no will to bend" during the lil' flashback.

As far as I can see, that's a reference to the creation of the Hollow Knights. Creating servants with one purpose (contain the Radiance), that cannot be corrupted or their will broken like a regular bug (i.e. all the plague-ridden ones). The Hollow Knight in the Black Egg could be one of the early attempts/successes, or it could have been a particularly powerful regular insect which the Hollow Knights were then modeled after. Since the Black Egg Knight is very different looking than any of your Hollow Knight kin and actually resembles Hornet more so. I don't think I've read every scrap of lore yet, so perhaps this doesn't hold water though.

It could be that after the radiance-plague continued to wrack the kingdom, the Hollow Knight "program" kind of went on auto-pilot, or pseudo-piloted by the void itself. The majority of other kin you see resemble yourself quite a bit, the black egg knight being the only exception I remember, and that could be because that was the last one that bore the craft of the insect king and his people... or it could be because the Radiance warped the Hollow Knight into a more regular-insect form over time.

Regardless, this whole thing seems like the Radiance being a jealous arse, so nuts to it :P Maybe it just created the moth / seer tribe and when the Wyrmking "enlightened" other insect-kind, it led to the whole no-god-but-me biblical situation, which ties into the theme with the plague too.

[esco1979]

I think the hollow knight looks like that because he has had time to grow. You'll notice that there are other shades that look bigger than you, but that the ones in the abyss are tiny like you. I'd guess with time they can grow.

Also, yeah it seems like the wyrm/king did create the void creatures. Judging by what the mask maker says with his mask on when you use the dream nail on him "Does it know of the face that hides beneath? Such remarkable contrast the wyrm conceived." Or it could be that the wyrm just designed the masks to control the already existing creatures of the void.

[Chelnoque]

I'm pretty sure that Abyss is something "natural" (in the way Radiance and Wyrm are natural). From the journal entry for Void Tendrils: "The bugs of Hallownest sometimes wondered, whether there are other, older, stranger Kingdoms deep below them". Abyss (or probably even Void below) is obviously implied to be the one (although it's not stated like a fact, as it's just Hunter's notices, but there I see no other reason for developers to speak about "older kingdoms" in the Void-related entry).

[esco1979]

Originally posted by Mr. Chelnoque:

I'm pretty sure that Abyss is something "natural" (in the way Radiance and Wyrm are natural). From the journal entry for Void Tendrils: "The bugs of Hallownest sometimes wondered, whether there are other, older, stranger Kingdoms deep below them". Abyss (or probably even Void below) is obviously implied to be the one (although it's not stated like a fact, as it's just Hunter's notices, but there I see no other reason for developers to speak about "older kingdoms" in the Void-related entry).

Great point. So then the statement of the mask maker seems to just apply to the mask our character wears and the contrast between its bright white nature and the pure blackness he truly is. Make sense.

It seems like the king created quite a few "vessels" by using masks on the siblings of the void. Judging by the mass grave at the bottom, there were a LOT of failures on his part. Which also links to his statement of "no cost too great."

[Chelnoque]

They don't wear Masks. Quirrel wears mask, for example.

Well, technically they are helmets, I believe, but hell, even protagonist's health is masks, so I believe that at least partly masks were involved in creating the Vessel. Mask Maker also hints about it pretty clearly.

[esco1979]

Originally posted by Kein Zantezuken:

Originally posted by esco1979:

Source?

https://www.reddit.com/r/HollowKnight/comments/5x75vy/piecing_story_together_history_lore/deht1cw/

Ummmm.... there is NOTHING there that states that the bugs were NOT made by the Radiance and just the moths.

Also, I'm not going on info 1 person claims to have because of a text extractor he supposedly made yet has put no physical proof up. That would be just stupid of me.

I have to agree with Chelnoque too about the mask scenario. I think it's pretty clear and made obvious by the mask makers comment as well as several other factors in game. He even has masks in charge of his health and soul carrying amount.

[esco1979]

Originally posted by Kein Zantezuken:

Well, nobody forces you, your call. The rest don't have issues with that so far.

Then they are gullible and foolish. Sorry, but people can claim anything on the internet. Without proof, dude is just talking trash as far as I'm concerned. Which should be common sense on forums. Though I do find humor in you pointing out how "the rest" believe him. As if that fact should sway my view. It won't. It just means I'm smarter than the rest of those people you mentioned. And I'll tell you, I can't find a reason to complain about that fact. Lol.

Case in point: I remember when Mortal Kombat Deception came out and the official forums for the game had a guy who CLAIMED he knew all this insider stuff about the game and had done all kinds of tricks for some super secret unlockable. He had most people running in circles buying his BS for months. Before it was finally revealed to be all trash. It was so bad that forum literally got shut down and cleared out.

Me and a handful of others all said the same thing the whole time: show us proof. But we were the minority. Which blows my mind but like you said: nobody forces you. Your call. :)

[Chelnoque]

Originally posted by Kein Zantezuken:

Take as example with Quirrel (you better read the pre-order comic for that) - the Mask he wears made him completely forget who he was before (erased personality) and gave him a specific quest/calling to fullfill.

Actually doesn't it seem awfuly similar to the protagonist? Oblivious to his origins (as I remember, Hornet states at the entrance of the Black Egg, that after properly descending into the Abyss and gaining Void Heart he is "remembered"), with a strong urge to do bold things without quite understanding their meaning. Even gameplay-wise it is shown as unique map markers for Black Egg and Dreamers, without buying pins for them from shop, so we know they are important for our journey, even before we have the picture of events.

Second, although I definitely agree, that masks don't grow, we actually can't say that Hollow Knight did grow. Obviously, he entered the egg after assuming his "mature form" (because monument in the City of Tears resembles not the child, but the adult, and I doubt that they put the monument to the "Future Hollow Knight", or something). So, even if he did grow, he did it before entering the Egg, but, strangely enough, not after (because he doesn't appear old, as Elderbug, or Old Stag, although he probably older than them both combined). I understand, that there can be plenty of reasons why he didn't grow (e.g. Radiance powers prevent him from aging or he is actually dead and animated by the Radiance as other husks, and dead are unlikely to age), or while he did grow, we can't notice this (no beard, no wrinkles). But still, considering all this, we can't tell for sure, if he assumed his "mature form" naturally, by aging, or it was handcrafted by the King, and the Vessel moved in from his original "child body". This theory has some cons and pros in it's turn (e.g. why even bother with mature body, if the child body will do, as we can see in the game's ending?), but still, can't say that he DEFINITELY grow up, and that Vessel kin heads are NOT masks.

Can't stop admiring, how much in this game can be told about such little question as "did Hollow Knight grow up".

However! Are the heads of Vessel kin are literally masks or not, is not that important. We can quite confidently say, that their "bodies" do some mind controlling stuff (otherwise, why Vessel kin are so willing to help King, who is actually seems to be their natural enemy?) - just like Quirell's mask. And that's what I meant when I said that "at least partly masks were involved in creating the Vessel". They may not be the literal mask, but it's pretty clear that at least "technology" of "mind controlling" is the same. Again, Mask Maker. "Does it need a mask, does it wear one?". It looks like that he can't really tell, if protagonist is wearing mask, or not. I believe he's confused, that he can see mind controlling FUNCTION within protagonist, but can't see any OBJECT which performs this function (because yes, literally protagonist doesn't wear the mask).

Actually, that this whole discussion was born from the misuse of the word "mask", but it is (or was) a good occasion to discuss those small lore tidbits, in my opinion.

P.S. I believe my english can be quite bad in this comment. Sorrey.

[esco1979]

Originally posted by Kein Zantezuken:

The extracted text was confirmed by other people who dived into resources.
I understand you want to hold on on your interpretation but just a small reminder: there is a clear difference between trying to piece a game's story from lore/setting bits and writing a fanfic.

Funny.... I was about to say the same to you. SMH, again until I SEE PROOF, it is heresay. The only person I see in that WHOLE thread you linked to stating that is Hexnail. I see no one else agreeing with him stating they found the same contrary to your claim. In fact, someone else also asks for proof and he doesn't reply.

But even if there were others, without proof of the text my response would be the same. For all I know they could be people trolling. So until I see some, I will be going by just the facts I see in game.

BTW I couldn't personally care less if he puts up proof in the next few days, showing that my theory was 100% wrong and that yes he wasn't just trolling. Why would I care if my theory is wrong? It's a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ video game. Seriously. If anything, seeing the developer's lore would save us time on all this guess work.

[Chelnoque]

By the way, about moth and Radiance. In addition to all, they have some noticeable common feats in appearance - bushy "beard" (don't know how it's called properly) and big, cloak-like wings. And thin long ears of moth somewhat resembles Radiance's crown (ok, this one is not that "noticeable").

[Chelnoque]

Originally posted by Kein Zantezuken:

My point was - if the white "skulls" they wear are masks they should not grow with the vessels. But they do.

Well, my point was - there is no definite proof that Hollow Knight was growing. His mature body can be created "as it is" by the king, without any natural aging. Both theories have strengths and weaknessess in explaining things, and there is no telling, which one is right. I believe we can close this part of discussion, as it's not that important.

If masks really do some "programming", while hollow shells just makes sure that it's owner's mind is "hollow", it is really a significant difference and I'm inclined to agree with you, that yes, probably the mask thing is not related (at least directly) to the creationg of Vessel.
But in fact, while the idea, that Vessel kin aka little ghosts aka potential hollow knights have no mind, no will, and no consciousness whatsoever, has strong evidence in the texts of the game, it heavily contradicts events of the game.
To avoid confusion, I've opened a new discussion, because this is dedicated to the Radiance.
If you're (or someone else is willing to continue to speak about this), I'm asking you to forget about the masks for now (because it's really not that important part of the lore, for my opinion), and concentrate on the much more important question, what that "void hollowness" really means in the game world.

Also I cannot agree, that map markers are "just for narrative purpose". They impose a goal for the player (and therefore, for protagonist), and you can't say 'bah, this is just not relevant to anything stuff'.

[esco1979]

Yes, it is confirmed in his bestiary entry that the version we fight is him fully grown. But that doesn't change anything about the mask. It could have grown with him. Keep in mind: we are talking about MAGIC masks that can alter someone's behaviour on MAGIC creatures in a game about MAGIC!

................. if somehow those creatures made babies by bumping those masks together and spitting in each other's mouths I wouldn't be surprised at this point. This game has some crazy ♥♥♥♥ in it! Lol.

[ASonic87]

This is why im not going for ending B. I believe pale knight is the villain that disturbed natures balance and now the natural force wants to return. It's too bad the story favors the void and other ♥♥♥♥, that ending cannot be good. Just cause void is ancient doesnt mean anything.

[ASonic87]

Originally posted by Nazara:

I agree with your thoughts and opinions Esco and have shared them myself for awhile. We are the bad guy. We betrayed our merciful goddess for the Pale Light!

Radiance did not give us / took away our sentience so that we did not have to worry about choices. She protected us from the burden of independence. How did we repay her? By casting her aside for the Pale Light. By forgetting the mercy she showed us. By letting her light rot away inside a prison while we stand by with our "consciousness".

Kill the heretics! Protect the light! Destroy the void!

Its painful that in a game like this, there is no option for a 3rd ending.. its like youre a robot doomed to destroy or seal radiance.. it can work as a noire-like story, but they shouldnt present it as a good or true ending , cause its not. Its a dark and bad ending and the protagonist is tool.