Never thought I would say this but...

[Millenia]

The backtracking and getting lost is getting really tiresome. I'm 6 hours in and 2 bosses down. No idea how to get back to those springy orb flower things without cheating and I guess that's it for the game.

[4thQueen]

Originally posted by PizzaSHARK! 🙃:

Originally posted by 4thQueen:

Counterpoint: I found the amount of backtracking to be perfectly enjoyable. Therefore your entire argument is invalid. QED

Opinions from incompetents have little weight.

Come back when you're whining about White Palace, bub.

[LazyAmerican]

If it's causing you that much frustration...use a guide. There's zero reason to carry on without aid if it means you're not gonna be able to enjoy the game you purchased.

[MS_Accel]

At the root of this is the incomprehensibly horrible map system. It's not necessarily just that you have to backtrack, it's how much you have to do when the map system fights you actively and often doesn't want you do know where the hell you are when you're exploring new territory.

[soullos]

Eventful backtracking vs wasting your time is a fine line. As much as I love this game, the game does tend to waste the player's time. An extra stag station or two would do a lot to respect the player's time.

[Iorveth]

Originally posted by wataniyob:

Originally posted by PizzaSHARK! 🙃:

Except it's a fact that backtracking takes so long it's annoying rather than entertaining. There's nothing entertaining about having to slowly slog through area after area because the fast travel stations are located so far away, or because there are no other rapid shortcuts, or because vendors don't move and/or are located in inconvenient locations. Getting to Leg Eater to buy or repair a charm is annoying. Getting to the Nailsmith to upgrade your nail is annoying. Super dash is stopped on contact with anything that has more than a few HP.

Claiming something is "annoying" immediately qualifies it as an opinion. Stating that the above is "fact" does not make it any more factual. Also, it literally only takes a minute or two to get from the nearest stag station to each of the vendors you listed above. Is that "too long" in your opinion?

if you find backtracking tedious, then I recommend that you just look up a guide for where collectibles are in the game. As an exploration-focused game in the spirit of Castlevania, backtracking is to be expected and for a first playthrough getting stuck is normal. If you don't like that, that's fine - refer to a guide. But please don't blow up at a game simply because it doesn't hand you where everything is on a plate. If you go further and also try to defend the position of not looking at a guide because a playthrough should be completely "blind," then I think you're going to find little enjoyment in this genre of games in general.

Couldn't have said it better
<20rys players are spoiled by games that hold their hand from A to Z,when a bit of brain&patience is required they start to brag,and ofc don't you dare go against their POV!

Game is filled with lot of fast travel options and similar stuff= too easy and not funny
Game won't hold your hand,asks for a bit of exploration = Too much time consuming
These are the result of spoiled kids IRL and this generation;as my old grandpa used to say
- "Less hugs more slaps" ,word to the wise...

[Kesvalk]

Originally posted by PizzaSHARK! 🙃:

(nothing like shinespark etc to get around quickly and maps tend to have crap everywhere to prevent rapid movement anyhow.)

the game does have a shinespark, and it's more useful than super metroid's.

Originally posted by PizzaSHARK! 🙃:

I've played dozens of Metroidvanias and that's exactly why I'm complaining about Hollow Knight's excessive backtracking times and terrible mobility.

all Metroid games with the exception of Fusion and OtherM, All modern open castlevanias, Shadow Complex, Strider, Ghost 1.0, Unepic, Megaman ZX/A... all of them have huge amounts of back tracking, and some of them doesn't even have a fast travel mechanic.

The real problem is that you're comparing your first run of Hollow Knight to your 100th run of super metroid/SotN.
the average time for a first run of super metroid is around the 10~13 hours mark, symphony of the night is even higher, but as you play the games and consequently start to know the paths more and more, your time in the game gets significantly lower, and that goes for every single 2D exploration focused platformer.

want to put that into pratice? go play a super metroid rom hack that you never played before, be it redesign, hyper metroid, phazon, any hack that changes the layout and sequences of the game, and you will see just how much backtracking you actually have to do in your first run, and every time you run the hack, you will find that your time get lower and lower.

This entire genre focus on exploration, and huge amounts backtracking comes with it. you just forgot all the backtracking you did when you first played other similar games.

[Melodia]

I don't think so. Playing games like Shadow Complex, Ori, Strider.....they don't even come close to the sheer, how to put this, lack of respect for the player's time that Hollow Knight feels like it has. Sure there's plenty of backtracking but even then there always feels like a progression and quite often it's usually easy to remember "Aha, I can go HERE now"...HK just doesn't seem to have that. Ori, especially, feels like a big straight line even when you're going through the same area, only all the optional items/areas really deviate from it.

[4thQueen]

What you call a bug, I call a feature. I really disliked the linearity of Ori, it didn't feel exploration based at all. You say it's a lack of respect... I think it holds players in great regard. HK doesn't treat you like an idiot, needing constant reinforcement or reminding. It lets you learn and use that knowledge. It makes each discovery that more satisfying, knowing that you earned it.

If you don't like this, I'd say that you don't like exploration heavy games at all. There's nothing wrong with that, of course, but to say that HK is somehow a bad game for doing the things it does very well is nonsense.

[Kesvalk]

Originally posted by 4thQueen:

What you call a bug, I call a feature. I really disliked the linearity of Ori, it didn't feel exploration based at all. You say it's a lack of respect... I think it holds players in great regard. HK doesn't treat you like an idiot, needing constant reinforcement or reminding. It lets you learn and use that knowledge. It makes each discovery that more satisfying, knowing that you earned it.

If you don't like this, I'd say that you don't like exploration heavy games at all. There's nothing wrong with that, of course, but to say that HK is somehow a bad game for doing the things it does very well is nonsense.

I would give my own reply, but 4thQueen summed up my feeling about ori and HK pretty well, so +1 for that comment.

[Saviouress]

I found the fact that you sometimes had to grind for save points or quick travel points the real issue with this game.

This is additionally amplified by the "bad" minimap where I hardly can find my way around and the fact that quick travel points are perceived as very rare.

During my first playthrough I ran into basically 5 obviously blocked of points before even unlocking my first way of getting past them.

I agree that holding the player by the hand is really bad design, but there is no reason to make me travel all the way back by foot all the time. It's tedious platforming for no real reason and I want to experience and take in the art style and level design, but it feels a bit like I hate parts of the level design, because I have to traverse it that often.

I mean the difficulty is souls-esque in that it's fair but hard and usually it's the players fault if you die, but the back tracking seems very unfair, especially not being able to go to your base whenever you feel like it. And this game is big, why unnecessarily increase the time spent playing?

[Melodia]

Originally posted by Saviouress:

And this game is big, why unnecessarily increase the time spent playing?

And that's the major thing -- it's not really about "explore brah" but the progression of the game combined with the map issues combined with as stated in the above post often just coming to way too many barriers to keep track of causes way too much /unnessesary/ running around which seems to just extend play time for the sake of being able to say "see it has X hours of gameplay!".
This is a common complaint about, for instance, the romhack Super Metroid Redesign, where progression upgrades seem to force you to run back and forth from one end of the map to the other....it's annoying there and it's annoying here.

[cheese]

I'm going to chime in here and say that I only got bothered about the back and forth once or twice during my first playthrough - I love exploring and looking round the world of Hallownest, it's so very varied and pretty.

Couple of design issues, aye - my big two are that the compass is a charm instead of being built-into the map, and that there's no way to keep track in-game of where breakable floors and keyholes are - but it's not *designed* to feature lots of backtracking.

There are stagways (and later, trams) to quickly get between distant sections of the map, and it should only take a couple of minutes to get to anywhere in particular from one of those. The only places that are really tedious to explore are Deepnest (which is pretty fitting thematically) and The Abyss (which... yeah, is a bit too big and far away, I'll accept that).

[4thQueen]

Originally posted by Saviouress:

I found the fact that you sometimes had to grind for save points or quick travel points the real issue with this game.

If you have to grind 50~200 geo to unlock a bench or Stag Station....... that means you're constantly dying. If you're constantly dying, you're not very good at the game. Geo is in extremely bountiful supply, and there are very few things to spend it on. Perhaps by having to grind it, you will practice your skills and improve, if only a little.

[Maridiem | Fangride]

I'm beginning to agree. I'm slowly but surely getting absurdly tired of traveling through zones, especially since the movement and combat controls are already pretty weak. The sameness of screens within each zone adds a ton to this problem, giving me very little identifyable landmarks, and the enemies respawning when exiting and rentering a map is such a horrid design choice and makes backtracking even MORE annoying than it already could be.

[TheBrightKing]

Originally posted by PizzaSHARK! 🙃:

Oh come off of it. I've played dozens of Metroidvanias and that's exactly why I'm complaining about Hollow Knight's excessive backtracking times and terrible mobility. Because I'm comparing it to Castlevania games, because I'm comparing it to Metroid games, because I'm comparing it to games like Guacamelee, Axiom Verge, Cave Story, and so many others.

There are enough reviews out there citing excessive backtracking times to make it an extremely valid point, and point towards it being a major design flaw.

Discounting the perfect scores, because no game is ever perfect, backtracking being a pain in the ass is one of the most common knocks against Hollow Knight.

Are you aware that the backtracking is completely optional? You dont look like; theyve told you before but ill repeat it, its just your opinion, not a fact.

I actually enjoyed the backtracking, for me it was one of the strongest parts, also, obstacles in the map for preventing faster backtracking add to the fluidity and make backtracking less monotonous by promoting a challenge of going faster thrpugh convoluted areas; you skill with the movement is rewarded.

Other reviews pointing it out dont make it a fact, other games being different in that matter dont make it a fact, there are reviews pointing it out as flaw, but there are also reviews praising level design; that you conveniently ignored.

Next time dont try to pass your opinions as facts; they arent. For some is a flaw for some is good thing.