Questions about the Seneschal

[Doomfrost]

Ok from what I gather the reality I came from now has no seneschal, but from I understand is that the world needs a seneschal in order for it's populous to have a will of their own. If there's no seneschal where will world get it's drive?

Also how did this cycle first start? How did the first seneschal come into being? Is there a much larger force at work that rules over the seneschals that the game never communicated?

[Valmar]

The world still has a Seneschal. Just go offline before you hand in the Wakestones to Quince. ;)

[Doomfrost]

How is that possible since you sacrificed yourself? By what the story implies the cycle should be broken at least for your reality. Or does New Game+ take place in a different one?

[Valmar]

Originally posted by Doomfrost:

How is that possible since you sacrificed yourself?

You only gave your pawn a portion of your will, much like Sofiah did with Selene. Savan probably tried the same thing... and never really killed himself. A Seneschal can only be killed by an Arisen. They cannot kill themselves with the Godsbane. Pay attention to Savan's pulling out of the Godsbane blade... how do you think it got there? ;)

Originally posted by Doomfrost:

By what the story implies the cycle should be broken at least for your reality. Or does New Game+ take place in a different one?

The story can mislead you. When you start a NG+, it says, again, that countless lifetimes have passed... the NG+ is really just another link the endless chain of your game's world... you must complete a NG+ offline to really understand this. As I said, go offline before you hand in the Wakestones to Quince. And wait for the reveal. :)

By stabbing yourself with the Godsbane, you kill your attachments to the world, so that you can rule over the world impartially. That's how the Seneschal must live, taking no sides. Eventually, the Seneschal understands the cycle and how it works during the endless eternity they act as the world's steward.

The existence of the Ur Dragon... almost seems to imply that there is something greater than the Seneschal working behind the scenes. Going beyond the eternal ring... such as Savan does... there would be a higher reality... or is that just another part of the endless cycle?

Lots of ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥. :P

[Doomfrost]

So the whole sacrifice scene is just my character shedding his earthly body so that only his spirit remains? Makes sense.

Though I would have preferred the cycle indeed broken, and all it was just a test of the real Maker to see if there was one among mankind that was truely righteous and could sacrifice themselves for the good of humanity.

[www.ninemil.com]

The Seneschal oversees all realities, not just the one the player's Awakened Arisen comes from. The post will remain empty for a brief period, until someone else defeats their dragon.

[Valmar]

Originally posted by Doomfrost:

Though I would have preferred the cycle indeed broken, and all it was just a test of the real Maker to see if there was one among mankind that was truely righteous and could sacrifice themselves for the good of humanity.

Same here... though, it is difficult to see how it could possibly be broken when the will of an ascended Arisen, the Seneschal, is what keeps the world alive and blooming. Then, the cycle starts again, perpetually.

The one solution I can think of is that one whose Will is never exhausted becomes Seneschal... but that seems to never happen, unfortunately. Even the Seneschal, one closest and yet still so far from whatever greater reality there is, is not all-powerful and all-knowing... so...

Originally posted by www.ninemil.com:

The Seneschal oversees all realities, not just the one the player's Awakened Arisen comes from.

This might not be strictly true. The Seneschal might oversee so many realities that it could seem practically infinite, but there might indeed be greater realities that they have no knowledge of. The Seneschal isn't omnipotent, nor omniscient, but is powerful and wise enough to appear to be both to those who aren't the Seneschal. The Seneschal is certainly omnipresent within all the worlds they look after.

[Doomfrost]

Well it could be that the Seneschal is wrong, maybe they think they're controlling things behind the scenes but they really aren't. Savan didn't seem so sure of himself whether he was a god or not, in the end he was just an ascended human.

Reminds of an episode of Stargate SG-1 called Maternal Instinct. There was a character Daniel Jackson who assumed he'd learned how to control things with his mind but in the end realizes that it wasn't him but was the otherworldly being doing it.

I would like to think the same thing could apply. It isn't the Seneschal that's making sure the world is alive and flourishing but is actually the real Maker doing it behind the scenes through the Seneschal. The Seneschal in this case is still being tested on whether or not he can sacrifice his life to ensure the cycle is broken.

Now why would the Maker create a cycle like this in the first place, that I don't know. Maybe the Maker has a plan for all the Arisen that can pass his test once they're ascended or maybe the test is just a way of getting into the Maker's heaven, if such a place exists.

But I'm getting to deep into this. So I'm going to stop.

[Old Cat 🐱]

Damn, I hate the concept when events repeat themselves perfectly with every new circle. Leaves little place for variety and imagination :(

I like it more in Dark Souls, where completly different countries and characters follow each other with each new circle.

[Hydris]

I originally interpreted it as the cycle being broken, but there is a lot of supporting evidence for the cycle being recontinued. But my thought process went:

Item description for Godsbane explicitly says guiding the chosen to true freedom, and by that, I assumed it didn't mean putting the Arisen in the position of the Seneschal (again).

Mercedes at the end mentions that everyone around the Arisen has been changed. So my assumption was, the world fallen in to is the same instance at least. Since she as some regular person isn't some will/lifeless husk, something different happened than what the Seneschal said would happen.

The epilogue text says the Arisen's consciousness fades to black, and the pawn's body transformed. Savan as the Seneschal is still conscious, and his pawn is in its original body. Though he did say there was infinite potential as a Seneschal, so at least with the bodies he could've recreated both.

For NG+ I just saw it as playing the game again, not a continuation of what happened after the first playthrough (if it was, I'd still have an NPC at my house). With online access, the game picks an player Arisen online as the Seneschal, so the offline Seneschal I considered a fill-in.

[Valmar]

Originally posted by Doomfrost:

Well it could be that the Seneschal is wrong, maybe they think they're controlling things behind the scenes but they really aren't. Savan didn't seem so sure of himself whether he was a god or not, in the end he was just an ascended human.

He was in control of things he oversaw. If the Seneschal provides the will for the world, and presumably, the many Arisen before they ascend, they passively and actively act as a fountain of Will, with which the beings of world act.

He is the closest thing to a God, from a mortal's perspective. But even he admitted he was ignorant of what was beyond the cycle.

Originally posted by Doomfrost:

I would like to think the same thing could apply. It isn't the Seneschal that's making sure the world is alive and flourishing but is actually the real Maker doing it behind the scenes through the Seneschal. The Seneschal in this case is still being tested on whether or not he can sacrifice his life to ensure the cycle is broken.

Except that the sacrifice with the Godsbane never really kills the Seneschal and never breaks the cycle. The reveal at the end of offline NG+ reveals as much. The Seneschal may just be a conduit for a higher being to keep the world going, you may be onto something there. We can only speculate on that, though.

Originally posted by Doomfrost:

Now why would the Maker create a cycle like this in the first place, that I don't know. Maybe the Maker has a plan for all the Arisen that can pass his test once they're ascended or maybe the test is just a way of getting into the Maker's heaven, if such a place exists.

I guess that is what is meant by being freed of the eternal ring... they break free, altogether, of the chains of the wheel. Ashe and Olra also went beyond the eternal ring... I wonder how that works, though.

[Hawke]

I agree with Hydris.

Though, NG+ might be considered as an alternative universe, where the Arisen haven't started their journey yet.

Edit. Or as the world, where another Arisen took Seneschal's throne and kept it occupied until arrival of the PC Arisen (who broke the cycle, instead of waiting for successor).

[Valmar]

Originally posted by Hawke:

I agree with Hydris.

Same, except for his last sentence.

Originally posted by Hawke:

Though, NG+ might be considered as an alternative universe, where the Arisen haven't started their journey yet.

Except that NG+ Arisen has gear and stats that don't make much sense for non-Arisen, except perhaps on hard mode. NG+ offline ending seems canonical, because you face your old Arisen and pawn. NG+ online is also canonical, because who knows how many cycles have passed before NG+? The vagueness of the timeline doesn't help.

[Hydris]

Originally posted by Valmar:

Originally posted by Hawke:

Though, NG+ might be considered as an alternative universe, where the Arisen haven't started their journey yet.

Except that NG+ Arisen has gear and stats that don't make much sense for non-Arisen, except perhaps on hard mode. NG+ offline ending seems canonical, because you face your old Arisen and pawn. NG+ online is also canonical, because who knows how many cycles have passed before NG+? The vagueness of the timeline doesn't help.

I considered the gear and stats transferring over being for gameplay purposes, not for narrative; it'd tremendously suck to lose all items and equipment just to play again.

If NG+ actually took place after the final scene, it'd also mean that after your pawn leaves the shore with your Beloved, they break up. The Dragonforged gets revived and Duke Edmun gets his youth back.

Edit: quote fix.

[Valmar]

Originally posted by Hydris:

I considered the gear and stats transferring over being for gameplay purposes, not for narrative; it'd tremendously suck to lose all items and equipment just to play again.

Same.

Originally posted by Hydris:

If NG+ actually took place after the final scene, it'd also mean that after your pawn leaves the shore with your Beloved, they break up. The Dragonforged gets revived and Duke Edmun gets his youth back.

Perhaps you already realized, but I was referring to the period of time between the player's Arisen becoming Seneschal and the beginning of NG+, which is an unknown period of time. So, it allows for the player's Arisen-as-Seneschal being very canonical.

The Dragon's Dogma universe is curious enough as it is.

[Hydris]

The Dragonforged reviving and the Duke age reverting after any given time makes no sense though.