Arisen(s)

[noir_7]

There are four in the game. Your character, the Duke, the Dragonborn Dragonforged and Selene's ghost arisen lady.

I don't remember the rules to how Arisen can die. Are they immortal rise from the ashes like pawns or will they just live on and on if they don't slip in the shower or choke on a chickenbone as long as the dragon lives?
So godsbane is the only way Arisen can die? Food poisoning ain't gonna do it?

So how did Selene's ghost arisen lady die? I know they say she "gave some of her life" to Selene but I would assume the dragon still has her heart? Thats the common thread among arisen right? Dragon gobbles up your heart.

We know the Duke made a deal and Dragonforged fought the dragon and apparently lost but it makes no mention on how Selene's ghost arisen lady dealt with the dragon if she did at all. Selene did say that "gran didn't talk to her about the dragon" to protect her from the church.

Thoughts?

[zadymek]

Originally posted by Zeithri:

Yes.
If we hardline it, the Seneschal, the maker and keeper wants you to break the wheel themselves. No one however, can break the everlasting wheel because it is for eternity. Even when eternity ends, the wheel will start anew.

1. What eternity? Eternity is definied as an everlasting "string" of life and death. The cycle of the world has nothing to do with eternity.
2. The cycle is the way for the Seneschal to produce a successor. If Ashe wants that system destroyed, well, add 2 and 2...

Originally posted by Zeithri:

It is a specific offer.
It's you who attribute it has to be something else to it.

You get whatever you want" is a specific offer. Got it.

Originally posted by Zeithri:

Grigori gives you the offer of Peace by Sacrificing your Loved one or Fight to death.

Grigori offers a duchy in exchange for a single life. This shows the limit of his power - or maybe this is the Newly Arisen's wish (then: telepathy).

Originally posted by Zeithri:

She answered his desire and took Ashe's love, her former pawn, as a sacrifice.
There's your answer. Pretty much what I myself said.

Grette-Dragon answered her interpretation of his rant.
And when Ashe shouted "Nooo! [That's not what I meant]" it was already too late.
Cause the dragoness is impatient and apparently can't tell a common ramble from an actual, coherent response.

Originally posted by Zeithri:

You have no idea how mind-reading works then.

How does mind-reading work? Then.

Originally posted by Zeithri:

Pay the Ferryman and you too can cross the River Styx.

The Cassardi sea is a mystical river-goddess, separating the human world from the underworld?

Originally posted by Zeithri:

Yes. I never got that far into it but I enjoyed my time with it.

If that's so, how can I "consider" it?

Originally posted by Zeithri:

You are not looking at it logically.
You are only looking for flaws.

I am looking for illogicalities. That's how looking at things logickally...uh...looks like.

Originally posted by Zeithri:

If a Griffin would suddenly appear in real life and land in front of you, your first reaction wouldn't be " Damn that's a Gryphon!" it'd be " What is this thing?! " and alternatively " Science Experiment run amok? ".

My first reaction would be shooting it dead. And then dissecting the corpse, yes.

Originally posted by Zeithri:

Within the context of the story, Dark Arisen makes perfect sense.

It alters the concepts of the story though...

Originally posted by Zeithri:

Simple. Olra didn't die.

Great!
And then what?

Originally posted by Zeithri:

> Eventually Grette and her pawn left him to fight the Dragon, but only the pawn returned, as a husk, masterless.

For anything you didn't wrap your head around ingame, ever considered checking up on the wiki? :owforce:

How does this address problems of the DA plot?

BTW Why not simply quote the original, from the Monument of Remembrance? From wiki.

Originally posted by Zeithri:

Only in your mind.

And in the video evidence, and lore research, and logicks.

[Zeithri]

Originally posted by zadymek:

1. What eternity? Eternity is definied as an everlasting "string" of life and death. The cycle of the world has nothing to do with eternity.
2. The cycle is the way for the Seneschal to produce a successor. If Ashe wants that system destroyed, well, add 2 and 2...

That is not dead which can eternal lie.
And with strange aeons even Death may die.

Originally posted by zadymek:

Grigori offers a duchy in exchange for a single life. This shows the limit of his power - or maybe this is the Newly Arisen's wish (then: telepathy).

The Duke desired power more than anything else. He was granted power.
A whole Kingdom to do with as he wished.

All we know that our Arisen desires is their heart back. If you accept the Dragon's offering, we see that we take the Duke's place instead. So storywise in that specific event, our character is no more different than the Duke. But that's just a convinient explaination after all, otherwise they'd have to make a lot of endings that would correspond to the player's personal desire, presumably based on a questionare during character creation.

Originally posted by zadymek:

Grette-Dragon answered her interpretation of his rant.
And when Ashe shouted "Nooo! [That's not what I meant]" it was already too late.
Cause the dragoness is impatient and apparently can't tell a common ramble from an actual, coherent response.

That's a nitpick.

Originally posted by zadymek:

The Cassardi sea is a mystical river-goddess, separating the human world from the underworld?

People used to believe long ago that the Sea is full of Sea Dragons, Leviathans and even giant Squids. In our modern day, we know... That at least Giant Squids are real, but we have no evidence of the others yet!

Originally posted by zadymek:

If that's so, how can I "consider" it?

Well, considering how you can't wrap your head around Bitterblack Isle,
I recon the idea of two Dragons of opposing alignments would be an even more damming condemnation to you.

Originally posted by zadymek:

I am looking for illogicalities. That's how looking at things logickally...uh...looks like.

Oh no, you are not.
You reject most explainations like how Dark Souls fans refuse to call Dark Souls 2 good.

Originally posted by zadymek:

My first reaction would be shooting it dead. And then dissecting the corpse, yes.

Do.. you often.. walk around with guns, or rifles?

Originally posted by zadymek:

It alters the concepts of the story though...

It doesn't. It adds nuance.
An alternation of the story that doesn't add nuance would turn it terribly Hollywood-esque.

Originally posted by zadymek:

Great!
And then what?
How does this address problems of the DA plot?
BTW Why not simply quote the original, from the Monument of Remembrance? From wiki.

And in the video evidence, and lore research, and logicks.

There are no problems.
I gave you the quote that was relevant to your question.
What "video evidence"? Don't link me, I don't care.

Here's the counter;
Do you seriously trust a YouTuber who earns money on talking smack as opposed to doing your own research?

[zadymek]

Originally posted by Zeithri:

That is not dead which can eternal lie.
And with strange aeons even Death may die.
(...)
People used to believe long ago that the Sea is full of Sea Dragons, Leviathans and even giant Squids. In our modern day, we know... That at least Giant Squids are real, but we have no evidence of the others yet!

OKi, let's see:
Dodge
dodge
dodge
and dodge again. Nothing to see here I guess.

Originally posted by Zeithri:

Well, considering how you can't wrap your head around Bitterblack Isle,
I recon the idea of two Dragons of opposing alignments would be an even more damming condemnation to you.

Oh, an offtopic then.

Originally posted by Zeithri:

Oh no, you are not.
You reject most explainations like how Dark Souls fans refuse to call Dark Souls 2 good.

I reject bs explanations that patch holes in arguments with magick and offtopic.

Originally posted by Zeithri:

It doesn't. It adds nuance.
An alternation of the story that doesn't add nuance would turn it terribly Hollywood-esque.

Pawns dying like a normal people is not a nuance.
Arisens immortal despite their Dragon being slain is not a nuance.
The Dragon creating entities capable of standing up against the Seneschal's will is not a nuance.
Pawns turning into possessive ghosts, instead returning to the Rift, is not a nuance...

Originally posted by Zeithri:

There are no problems.
I gave you the quote that was relevant to your question.
What "video evidence"? Don't link me, I don't care.

There are no problems, just like "make your wish" is a specific offer.
It's irrelevant.
I have noticed that. Many, many posts ago...

Originally posted by Zeithri:

Here's the counter;
Do you seriously trust a YouTuber who earns money on talking smack as opposed to doing your own research?

Gee, that's something...I didn't...exp...nah, it's another offtopic.

I'll just point here that I DO do my own research.
While it is you who is constantly quoting other ppl to prove his point.

[Zeithri]

Originally posted by zadymek:

Originally posted by Zeithri:

That is not dead which can eternal lie.
And with strange aeons even Death may die.
(...)
People used to believe long ago that the Sea is full of Sea Dragons, Leviathans and even giant Squids. In our modern day, we know... That at least Giant Squids are real, but we have no evidence of the others yet!

OKi, let's see:
Dodge
dodge
dodge
and dodge again. Nothing to see here I guess.

Well let me put it differently.
You reject what I said because it didn't conform to the answer you wanted.

You said;

1. What eternity? Eternity is definied as an everlasting "string" of life and death. The cycle of the world has nothing to do with eternity.

Here, you answer your own question in the same sentence.
If that goes above your head, then let me explain:

You cannot break the Cycle of Eternity in Dragon's Dogma because it's everlasting.

2. The cycle is the way for the Seneschal to produce a successor. If Ashe wants that system destroyed, well, add 2 and 2...

Not produce, to find one worthy enough to become a Seneschal.
Ashe had potentially the strength to do so but upon realizing that his adoptive mother is the Dragon and the choice is to either kill her or his beloved, he was immediately overwhelmed and griefstrucken.

Originally posted by zadymek:

Pawns dying like a normal people is not a nuance.
Arisens immortal despite their Dragon being slain is not a nuance.
The Dragon creating entities capable of standing up against the Seneschal's will is not a nuance.
Pawns turning into possessive ghosts, instead returning to the Rift, is not a nuance...

It's the philosophical conundrum of " Can God create a boulder so heavy that not even God can lift it? "

Now you're twisting what that part of the discussion was about.
Which ALL started in this spot;

6. Last I checked Arisens don't become demigods from just wanting. One would expect a Dragon deal at least. In Dark Arisen one of Arisens becomes the embodiment of Death from his own psychosis. Nevermind the Dragon issue: WTF?!

- Sure, let's cram "magick" anywhere we have no logickal explanation. I'm sure nothing bad will come out of it....
Anway, if that's all you got, you got nothing but "it's weird".

-- You are not looking at it logically.
You are only looking for flaws.

If a Griffin would suddenly appear in real life and land in front of you, your first reaction wouldn't be " Damn that's a Gryphon!" it'd be " What is this thing?! " and alternatively " Science Experiment run amok? ".

Within the context of the story, Dark Arisen makes perfect sense.
Weird can also be read in it's original form, of which it's meaning was to describe the supernatural.

--- It alters the concepts of the story though...

---- It doesn't. It adds nuance.

Originally posted by zadymek:

Gee, that's something...I didn't...exp...nah, it's another offtopic.

I'll just point here that I DO do my own research.
While it is you who is constantly quoting other ppl to prove his point.

She draw parallells of context.
The River Styx, the Lovecraft quote, philosophical notions regarding existence and deities.

By all accounts, Olra is a magical ferrywoman that takes you across the sea to a land beyond lands of which no mortal can travel to naturally. Even if all life in the world and universe of DD dies, and so too would death die, it'll all start over again because nothing ever truly ends. Especially not in that world which exists as a cycle.

This being in fact many widespread philosophical beliefs that everything is nothing but a big wheel. Buddhism for example says that Life is pain and suffering and the only way out is to nurture a way to desire nothing, only then can you avoid reincarnation. And even a scientific theory that states that the Universe goes Big Bang, then Big Crunch, and Big Bang again. Forever and ever, and ever ~


....

.......

............

But of course, you reply with
> That's not logical. Off-topic.

So let's just say the one thing that I know will agree on because you've already decided it in your mind:
" I don't like Dark Arisen. "

[zadymek]

Originally posted by Zeithri:

If that goes above your head, then let me explain:

You cannot break the Cycle of Eternity in Dragon's Dogma because it's everlasting.

Eternity has nothing to do wtih the discussion. You pop out with it for no reason.
Also, there's no "cycle of eternity". You are making stuff up.

The discussion is all about the cycle where Arisens are "produced", governed by the will of the Seneschal, not the all life and stuff.
Ashe wants to destroy the cycle, the process that creates Arisens.

"If this be the will of the gods… the order of the world… Then damn the lot of them!
I’ll tear the whole of it asunder!"

Originally posted by Zeithri:

Not produce, to find one worthy enough to become a Seneschal.

Semantics. Besides, without the Dragon there would be no Arisen, so...

Originally posted by Zeithri:

It's the philosophical conundrum of " Can God create a boulder so heavy that not even God can lift it? "

It's not. We know, from the game, that the Seneschal is not all powerful, all knowing etc.

Originally posted by Zeithri:

Now you're twisting what that part of the discussion was about.
Which ALL started in this spot;

No, it all started from this post
https://steamcommunity.com/app/367500/discussions/3/2549465882922426169/?ctp=3#c3280321473022819568
where I address the very same problems of Dark Arisen lore in response to your claim, that I didn't read all the text related to the story.

Originally posted by Zeithri:

By all accounts, Olra is a magical ferrywoman that takes you across the sea to a land beyond lands
(random ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥)

By "all accounts" you mean these quotes

"You speak now to a shadow of sorts. My flesh resides elsewhere. I would take you there now, if it please you."
and
"This shadow can but point the way, ser. Shall I see you to the island?"

Truly a ferryman. Not a shadow pointing at the direction, a magick boat operator.

Originally posted by Zeithri:

This being in fact many widespread philosophical beliefs

And random capricorn style bs again. Skipping.

Originally posted by Zeithri:

But of course, you reply with
> That's not logical. Off-topic.

That's a made up quote, so...?

Originally posted by Zeithri:

So let's just say the one thing that I know will agree on because you've already decided it in your mind:
" I don't like Dark Arisen. "

And me being biased against the mod quality level, buggy, grindy, retcony expansion to Dragon's Dogma broughts what exactly to the discussion?

[Zeithri]

Originally posted by zadymek:

snip

Well reading your entire post,,,

It's clear you aren't interested in anything else than having your opinion that " It's bad " validated. I will not give you this. Nor will I entertain this any longer. I just find it fascinating that you have 5000+ Hours spent in the game and yet still cannot understand Dark Arisen.

Take Care

[neonfatum]

To be honest, I remember that Dark Arisen's plot didn't really make much sense to me either, at least as far as my understanding of the mechanics of the DD world was concerned.

Apart from that though, something always confused me about the world in DD. All living things are being kept alive or at least corporeal by the Seneschal's will. Without it, nothing exists and nothing ever happens. But Savan looks like he has very little will or energy left, if any at all. What happens if no new Seneschal ever arrives? Does the world eventually end, or does the Seneschal just continue suffering forever?

Plus, how do Arisens with extraordinary wills come into existence if they themselves derive their will from the Seneschal? I guess that must be where the idea of a god creating a being stronger than them comes in.
Or maybe humans with extraordinary will come from a place (in the metaphysical sense) outside of the "system" and the world that is being held together by the Seneschal.

Or well, I guess I'm probably overthinking it.
It's probably just a buddhistic cycle of reincarnation and entropy isn't a thing at all.
Which is cool too!

[Snowskeeper]

I don't think living things derive their will from the Seneschal; the daimon mentions that there's a crucible of souls in the multiverse beyond the cycle we exist within. I think the world itself is kept going by the Seneschal.

[neonfatum]

Originally posted by Snowskeeper:

I don't think living things derive their will from the Seneschal

Huh, I thought that's pretty much exactly what the Seneschal tells you. He refers to the everyday people you meet and how their will to live and do things is derived from his will.
Maybe I'm misremembering, it's been a while for sure.

But the multiverse idea makes sense, with the concept of the Everfall and the world folding in on itself infinitely. Maybe that multiverse or that crucible of souls could be the Rift? Or again maybe it's something separate and based in Buddhism. I wonder if every world is inhabited by the same souls then?

I always thought it was strange too how pawns were treated by the text like they're a completely separate species or entity from humans, when they're clearly not that different. To me it always seemed more interesting and satisfying to consider them souls or empty human vessels that you summon, who may have forgotten their past selves and have to essentially learn how to be human again. Or who may remember their real selves if instilled with the humanity or will of an Arisen or something.

[zadymek]

Originally posted by neonvagrant:

Plus, how do Arisens with extraordinary wills come into existence if they themselves derive their will from the Seneschal? I guess that must be where the idea of a god creating a being stronger than them comes in.

Not a will.
Will to live. Will to survive. Unbending will, or "volition".

The forge of Seneschal's heart puts life into "empty vessels". Also "turns the eternal wheel of the world". But

"Along the endless string of life and death, there are some born with a hunger. They yearn for some other, better place. They are the Arisen, nascent fountainheads of will. And so the dragon is sent into the world to guide the Arisen, and refine them. To temper their wills into aught capable of sustaining the world. "

Beings with partucular desire for something more than being "animated by forces unseen", beings born with their own wil to live are the Arisens, and a Dragon is sent to guide them. Yada, yada, yada.

So, I suppose Arisens are the natural phnomena. Not something created by the Seneschal, only "tempered" by his endeavours.

BTW By no means are Arisens an example of beings stronger than the Seneschal.

[Snowskeeper]

Originally posted by neonvagrant:

But the multiverse idea makes sense, with the concept of the Everfall and the world folding in on itself infinitely. Maybe that multiverse or that crucible of souls could be the Rift?

I think it's something within the Rift, yeah. Or rather that the Rift is what contains all the different worlds, as well as the cosmic infrastructure that links all those worlds and keeps them working. I think that's effectively the structure to which the wheel is fixed; it's not just spinning for its own sake, but rather it's a waterwheel attached to a mill. I think that mill is, in turn, part of what the game calls the "unseen forces" that animate the world. The daimon alludes to this.

[neonfatum]

Originally posted by zadymek:

BTW By no means are Arisens an example of beings stronger than the Seneschal.

Well, not in terms of their power.
What I meant by that is, if the Seneschal's will sustains all things, and Arisen are born of the same will, then for an Arisen to succeed the Seneschal, the will of the creation has to be equally as strong, if not stronger than that of the creator.

But from these quotes I take that there is no direct relation between the will of an individual and that of the Seneschal. It's not that every being in the world receives a part of the Seneschal's will which may vary in its potency, which is what I initially thought. The Seneschal just sustains the existence of the world and all living things.

So, Arisen don't get their will from the Seneschal in any sense, their strong will is a part of their character. Somewhat like the idea of the "born hero", but not really, obviously, since they're still fallible and many fail or give up on their quest.
I wonder if it's even nature, rather than nurture that can set someone on the path to becoming Arisen.

[Snowskeeper]

I would also say that the game tells us repeatedly that Pawns have no wills of their own, which is, like... Even in the base game there are multiple examples of that not being true. And I think that's deliberate, not an oversight. We're supposed to suspect that the current order is not functioning correctly; the things we are told are not reliable. Biggest example of that is the Seneschal talking about the chair being a position of great power and authority, and what it gives you is, uh, the ability to walk around the world while invisible and observe it.

(And then the daimon just straight-up says that the order is broken in BBI.)

Also, if y'all haven't seen, Dragon's Dogma 2 was announced.

[zadymek]

Originally posted by neonvagrant:

I wonder if it's even nature, rather than nurture that can set someone on the path to becoming Arisen.

If you consider fishing such a noble environment to grow up in... ;)
But definitely, and the Seneschal undelines it, the Dragon is essential part of refining this process.

Originally posted by Snowskeeper:

(And then the daimon just straight-up says that the order is broken in BBI.)

Daimon was literally born out of such attitude, based exclusively on personal bias - you have Ashe's justification for this position during the tour around Fallen City, it's all "my lost love" nihilistic bs. That doesn't mean it is true, only that he thinks it true.

And daimon himself doesn't even go above this in explaining how is the order "broken" and what is the "truth" - just another portion of senseless ramble.

#bbiisbs

[Snowskeeper]

Daimon was literally born out of such attitude, based exclusively on personal bias - you have Ashe's justification for this position during the tour around Fallen City, it's all "my lost love" nihilistic bs. That doesn't mean it is true, only that he thinks it true.

And daimon himself doesn't even go above this in explaining how is the order "broken" and what is the "truth" - just another portion of senseless ramble.

The daimon wasn't 'born' of anything to do with that. It is an entity foreign to Ashe that was made to possess him as part of fulfilling Ashe's wish. When you beat Ashe up enough, it takes over, exposits at you for a bit, and then departs his body, promising to meet you at the Crucible of Souls. Its personality is completely different; it isn't particularly angry or depressed. It doesn't even have the same voice.

Also, I'm pretty sure I've pointed this out before, but if you check the daimon's item drops--its horns, its claws, and the vile wakestone that drops from its torso--they all refer to it as "a daimon." It's a type of creature, similar to the dragon--not an individual or entity named Daimon.