What are your thoughts on Fighters without...

[Candy Witch]

...shield skills, or without shields altogether?

(I'm speaking of Pawns.)

I've noticed that a lot of Fighters tend to spend plenty of time with their shield raised without being under attack or against enemies casting spells that can't be blocked.

Do people remove their shields so they stop doing this?

Removing shield skills, I think I get: the pawn won't use the Shield to attack or sit behind perfect defenses anymore, and attack more with the blade. Though due to what I described above, the use of this is questionable when you could just give them Divine Defense and be done with the shield skills.

Any insight to share?

[Candy Witch]

Escrito originalmente por Supa-Troopa:

One thing that is particularly interesting — are you sure shield strength stat affects blocks? Some info source would be nice :)

I don't think that's right, though I don't have info source other than anecdotal evidence. I think the Shield Strength stat is only referenced in shield attacks and damage dealt with Perfect-Blocking. The Shield's Knockdown and Stagger stats might just as well be the determining factor in this. Otherwise Magick Shields would be garbage to block with, unless their Magick stat suddenly mattered instead of Strength.

Other than that, any normal shield blocks any amount of damage completely, regardless of its Strength/Magick rating. (MK and Magick Shields are a slightly different story.) The difference in shields is whether a normal block against a strong attack will suffer a guard-break or not. A Perfect Block never gets guard-broken. A normal Block might, presumably based on the shield.

Whether or not it's the Strength rating or some other (maybe even hidden) stat of the shields is a different story I haven't seen properly answered yet, myself. The DD wiki cites Knockdown/Stagger as the determining factor, but I'm not convinced the wiki is always right about everything.

[Glorious_GEO]

Shield skills are pretty useless. They only need a shield for perfect block.

[Filthy Cur]

In my experience, the fighter/warrior taunts had fairly good effect when I was rolling as sorc, with another sorc and a mage.

Any of the skills CAN be useful, some are more situational than others. The mileage can vary a lot depending on what your party set-up is.

Maybe get a 2 fighter, 2 warrior setup and give them all taunts. Start up your own drum-line, taunt them to death.

And why are there no dance emotes in this game?

[Candy Witch]

Escrito originalmente por Filthy Cur:

Maybe get a 2 fighter, 2 warrior setup and give them all taunts. Start up your own drum-line, taunt them to death.

Damn. Now I wanna try this and see if the enemy hordes start forming a conga line.

[BurlsoL]

Escrito originalmente por Supa-Troopa:

BurlsoL: some nice info for the thought, thanks!

She was definitely not wasting her time in combat, with all those "missing" shield skill slots, tho. And hindsight sweep was used not so often when she had sheltered assault equipped too, cause most of the time she just chose to use that (quite ineffective, as I mentioned).

One thing that is particularly interesting — are you sure shield strength stat affects blocks? Some info source would be nice :)

The hindsight sweep thing is usually because the pawn will favor this instead of blocking. Good early on and in a mitigation role, less effective in a tanking role since you don't have the stagger from a perfect block to create openings for other pawns. Meanwhile sheltered assault, while holding up a shield seems to be used more by the AI as a preferred way to attack stationary or slow moving enemies. Inclinations and knowledge are also probably a factor.

It isn't about giving a pawn skills and expecting them to use it, but rather setting up skills so that the pawn has options other than basic attacks when faced with something requiring a more tactical approach. The AI doesn't behave like the player. Their base behavior is one of facilitating other members by means positioning or using skills instead of trying to deal maximal damage. If normal attacks and blocks work well against a particular encounter, the pawn won't stand around idle, no. But their behavior will more often ignore tactical callouts. To a degree it's a matter of playstyle, but it's also the sort of behavior they will always lean towards.

As for the shield strength thing, you can test this yourself by comparing an unenhanced rusty shield against a higher-end shield. Not only will the pawn's guard be broken more quickly from repeat attacks against stronger enemies, but their perfect blocks will be less effective. Sheltered Assault still uses primary weapon for determining damage, but actual blocks or skills that relate to hitting things with the shield will be stronger. No evidence to cite other than my own experiences on the matter, but even the wiki has been proven to be wrong on a few occasions.

[Prawn of Creation]

Yeah, she's mitigator/utilitarian/medicant, skillset worked great with that setup. As I said, I tested my skillset out on (+hob)goblins, but never really noticed her lagging behind the team or being ineffective when I went out with her on missions later. Will test out the shield block, when I go back to being fighter again, or switch to assassin. Thanks!

[minusthedrifter]

No shield (lolwut) and no shield skills is a no hire from me. Pawns perfect block just fine even with shield skills I've never understood why people think they block more without them. I'm not a fan of Divine Defense or Sheltered Assault however, pawns rarely use them effectively.

[Candy Witch]

Escrito originalmente por BurlsoL:

As for the shield strength thing, you can test this yourself by comparing an unenhanced rusty shield against a higher-end shield. Not only will the pawn's guard be broken more quickly from repeat attacks against stronger enemies, but their perfect blocks will be less effective.

Testing that way doesn't really confirm that Strength ratings are the deciding factor. If the wiki is right, and it's based on their Knockdown/Stagger ratings, then you'd have to compare two shields with disparate Strength ratings but similar Knockdown/Stagger, like Sable Sentinel and Orilux. There's no discussion to be had that a Dread Aspis will block more or heavier hits before guard-break than a Rusty Shield, that much is obvious.

Escrito originalmente por minusthedrifter:

Pawns perfect block just fine even with shield skills I've never understood why people think they block more without them.

I don't think that's the reason people do it. They do it with the intent of the pawn attacking with the sword more often, instead of attacking with the shield. Presumably because of the obviously large disparity in numbers in between their respective Strength ratings.


Which makes me curious. Assuming the strongest shield and sword from the same tier, and a skeleton or other type of enemy with high piercing resistance and low blunt resistance: does the shield hit harder after resistance is calculated, or a sword skill hit?

Because that would be a decisive argument to add a shield attack skill. A pawn with proper Bestiary knowledge would probably err on the side of using the attack with the higher damage output. The only other two sources of blunt damage on normal attacks are warriors with hammers or MK Arisen with maces.

[haplok]

Interestingly enough, yellow vocation Bow arrows are also considered blunt weapons. There is no piercing category in DD, thee's either slash or blunt physical attack.

[cyäegha]

Escrito originalmente por haplok:

Interestingly enough, yellow vocation Bow arrows are also considered blunt weapons. There is no piercing category in DD, thee's either slash or blunt physical attack.

doubtless he already knew that, hence why he referred to normal attacks

bow use is considered a skill unto itself as it requires one to hold the secondary skill button (at least on controller), albeit one whose damage is affected by a core skill (loose)

[Snowskeeper]

Putting my two cents in, though they've undoubtedly been brought up by now:
Even against low-level enemies, fighter pawns without a shield will get wasted. Nothing wrong with getting rid of shield skills, but I can't see any reason to take away their shield, especially once you've unlocked the Secret of Metamorphasis and corrected that mistake you made in the early game where your pawn is tiny and can't carry anything.

[Scars Unseen]

Escrito originalmente por Snowskeeper:

especially once you've unlocked the Secret of Metamorphasis and corrected that mistake you made in the early game where your pawn is tiny and can't carry anything.

Ah, the burdens of cosplaying your pawn. She brings in the RC though, so I don't mind.

[minusthedrifter]

Escrito originalmente por Snowskeeper:

especially once you've unlocked the Secret of Metamorphasis and corrected that mistake you made in the early game where your pawn is tiny and can't carry anything.

Serious question, how much crap do you people carry in your inventory?

Both my Arisen and pawn are SS and I'm a pack-rat who picks up everything I see and only once have I ever had issue with weight and that was in the Water God Temple with those 10lbs slats. Beyond that I've gone the entire game picking up every drop and every plant and have never become over encumbered.

[Candy Witch]

Escrito originalmente por haplok:

Interestingly enough, yellow vocation Bow arrows are also considered blunt weapons. There is no piercing category in DD, thee's either slash or blunt physical attack.

Yeah, that always irked me, especially when you can just hamfist some arrows with X-fold Flurry and pulverize skeletons. In almost any other game scenario, that would make no sense, or require special blunt arrows. And as mentioned above by someone else, yeah, I mixed up the names. I meant Slashing resistance.

[Rob'sEvilTwin]

Escrito originalmente por minusthedrifter:

Escrito originalmente por Snowskeeper:

especially once you've unlocked the Secret of Metamorphasis and corrected that mistake you made in the early game where your pawn is tiny and can't carry anything.

Serious question, how much crap do you people carry in your inventory?

Both my Arisen and pawn are SS and I'm a pack-rat who picks up everything I see and only once have I ever had issue with weight and that was in the Water God Temple with those 10lbs slats. Beyond that I've gone the entire game picking up every drop and every plant and have never become over encumbered.

I don't think I have ever hired a pawn under 5'6" ? My preferred height is 5'10" or over.

I like them to have reach, carrying capacity, not get drenched in puddles, and not be creepy (last one is just a matter of taste).