What are your thoughts on Fighters without...

[Candy Witch]

...shield skills, or without shields altogether?

(I'm speaking of Pawns.)

I've noticed that a lot of Fighters tend to spend plenty of time with their shield raised without being under attack or against enemies casting spells that can't be blocked.

Do people remove their shields so they stop doing this?

Removing shield skills, I think I get: the pawn won't use the Shield to attack or sit behind perfect defenses anymore, and attack more with the blade. Though due to what I described above, the use of this is questionable when you could just give them Divine Defense and be done with the shield skills.

Any insight to share?

[Shiroi Ren]

Shield Drum is useless because in real time battle your team spread. I used it effectively vs group of foes but pawns are not so smart to make something like drum-maw combo. And in most cases the enemies are clustered enough to maw them from the start.

[average turbine enjoyer]

Originalmente postado por haievery1:

shield skills are ♥♥♥♥.

I'm more in line with this thinking. They're not completely useless but I can do without them. I see pawns defend all the time without attacking. That gets annoying.

[Layne]

I like having Cymbal Onslaught on pawns. In my experience they only use it against skeletons since it's blunt damage.

[BurlsoL]

Originalmente postado por Wratts:

Originalmente postado por BurlsoL:

As for a fighter without shield skills... A strider or a warrior is what you want instead.

Nah. Striders are versatile, but not *that* versatile. They can do quite a few notable things, but eating damage is not their forte. They'll get knocked over quickly, and can't armor up as well as red-vocations.

It's a matter of different approaches. With strider the approach is to rush in immediately and deal as much damage as possible, usually distracting the big bad while the sorc prepares their spells. They don't have the protection of a fighter or warrior, but usually have a higher damage output and mobility. Skills like Implicate can quickly render groups of enemies vulnerable. It isn't as good when you're trying to fight above your capability, but does match with a more aggressive playstyle.

With warrior, you're at a midpoint between offense and defense. For pawns though, you're best using a warrior in a mitigation/clearing type of role and looking for similar skills. 1 chargeup is tolerable, but generally should be avoided. The point is to have something fairly tanky and able to deal damage to 1-2 shot weak things then be able to stagger so that it can grab the attention of larger things.

With fighter, you forego that offense for the sake of defense. While shield drum isn't overly useful in the middle of the fight, it does seem to be managed conditionally on both their inclinations and number of enemies being fought. The number of enemies being fought is one of the reasons why it is usually used at the start of the fight. If the pawn has the attention of the thing it is inclined toward, it usually won't use it again unless the number of enemies is over that threshold. It's entirely up to you to decide if you want to use that initial opening to thin out the numbers before jumping onto the largest enemy, but at that point you usually want something in a mitigation/clearing sort of role.

At the end of the day, the pawn will behave the way it will behave. Certain quirks cannot be helped beyond mere accomodation. But that's also why there's more than 1 singular profession and skill setup. If something isn't working for you, consider a different party format. If it still isn't working, try a different approach.

[Prawn of Creation]

When my Jenny was a fighter in her twenties, I noticed she ran out of stamina very easy. Turned out she was totally overusing Shield Storm, 'specially against the skellies and (!) regular undead, even when her sword was doing approximately the same damage (that's x2 moar damage vs shield). She still used it the right way — to break through the enemy defence, but more often she just used it at a whim.
Then I noticed that she rarely ever finish sheltered assault, she did 1-3 strikes, but that was mostly all.

After some testing done with goblins at hand (just she vs a horde, I ran back and forth in the background), I ended up with:

1)Burst Strike
2)Hindsight Sweep
3)Antler Toss
---
1)Shield Drum
2)---
3)---

later I did changed Antler for Dragon's Maw, as she not spam it, and run out of stamina as I feared. Drum does work well against groups of enemies, ofc one you attacked will switch to you, but usually you can't attack all, I dunno, 10 of them. And the rest will switch to fighter.

Now I dunno, I haven't tested this setup against one big guy, say ogre, but vs plenty little guys it rocked. She constantly uses Burst Strike, tries to get Sweep as a counterattack, perfect blocks any stones/flasks, Maws if she gets to 2 or more enemies at once, or sometimes against 1 crowned dude, and rarely Drums, only when 1 guy (from a group of 6-10) notices me standing near him looking at the action and gives me mean look. Even then she mostly just BS him :)

the only skill I haven't tested in this setup was Divine Defence, since vs goblins she better off with perfect blocks, and drakes were rare at that time (and, frankly, stuff like that are for all the team, not her soloing, lol).

[BurlsoL]

Originalmente postado por Supa-Troopa:

To clarify some things.
Shield Storm does tend to be used too frequently, particularly against swift enemies like harpies for some reason. Useful to the player, usefl in situations where you're fighting in areas where your pawn will need to stun or knockback shield users (bandits or catacombs portion of the story mostly). But mostly worthless in other parts. Treat it like fire enchantments for mage/sorc in this regard.

Sheltered Assault is also a fairly situational skill. They won't use it against weaker things very often, but will use it in situations similar to where striders use hundred kisses. Such as cases where you have a larger enemy that has been knocked down. Against dragons, it is arguably the most damage they will actually do the heart. Positioning is important, with all things, but when it happens, it's beautiful.

Cymbal Onslaught is an alternative skill to shield storm since it tends to be more intelligently used and rarely used, while also filling a similar role in their behavior... breaking through an enemy's guard.

Similar to how the Ranger AI works, removing a skill or even a weapon entirely doesn't necessarily make that pawn use other skills more often. It can appear this way since they can have less of a stamina issue, but in cases where the pawn has enough stamina, there will be frequent "holes" in their activity where they pace around doign nothing. The AI won't spam skills or use the most optimal strategy, that's on the players. What they will do is cycle through a listing of possible responses to a situation, then compare that current item on their list with a skill that meets certain criteria. If no skill is found, they tend to wait till the next cycle. This is also why you can't just remove all the abilities from a sorc to encourage charged bolts. What you get instead is a sorc that occasionally shoots things with their staff, and spends most the fight running around to "reposition" while charging their defense orbs thingy. Having missing skills might work decently at lower levels, where stamina is more of a limitation. But at higher ones it just means that the pawn can be left without a meaningful response to a situation.

As for the damage being done... That is largely dependent on the shield being used. The strength stat of the shield is both the damage done when using the shield as well as being related to how much of a hit it can defend against. In the case of a rusted shield or Dragon's Roost, it will also inflict debilitations when doing perfect blocks.

[Tahl]

Public nudity. Put a shield on.

[Hexerin]

I'm surprised there's not even a single mention of Maw[dragonsdogma.wikia.com]

Who needs shield skills when this ability does everything?

[Rob'sEvilTwin]

Apparently I am just thick

Both of my regular tanks have stopped using Divine Defence at some point and I didn't notice.

[vitamin boost]

As a Sorcerer, I still prefer my main pawn as a tanky, shield-ey big guy wading into a horde of enemies standing there, looking pretty, while I prepare my big spells to insta-wipe everything. I don't want my fighter killing stuff. That's my job. His main job is to be the distraction. (So that's just my playstyle. If you like having your DPS-ey fighter, be my guest.) :)

[Rizilliant]

Originalmente postado por WheelofDeath:

Shield Drum and Divine Defence are awful skills. Fighters are far better off without those skills.

We have very differing experiences then.. They work just fine when i have pawns who use them.. Ofcourse Dragons Mw if you want a DPS fighter, but for defense, and keeping attention, these are 2 of the better Shield skill for that..

If you have played a fighter with shield drum you can watch them change focus.. War Cray doesnt seem to have the range of Shield Drum however, and since Warriors only get 3 slots, i would agree its far less effective.. But fo rthe fighter, it works just fine.

Next time youre being hit from all sides by Harpies, Strigoi, Hellhounds, etc. you'll be glad that shield drums grabbed the attention of several of them.. Nthing quite as annoying as trying to cast a spell, only to have it interupted JUST as its being cast! And we all know, they only ever interupt at the VERY end of a high/grand cast!!!

Shield Drum works just fine..

PS: Dragons Maw often leaves your fighter bent over, huffing and puffing because it drained them completely of stamina..Unless they fight with heed to health, and stamina...

[Hexerin]

Originalmente postado por Rizilliant:

PS: Dragons Maw often leaves your fighter bent over, huffing and puffing because it drained them completely of stamina..

Invest in mushrooms.

[Candy Witch]

Originalmente postado por ishkalafufu:

As a Sorcerer, I still prefer my main pawn as a tanky, shield-ey big guy wading into a horde of enemies standing there, looking pretty, while I prepare my big spells to insta-wipe everything. I don't want my fighter killing stuff. That's my job. His main job is to be the distraction. (So that's just my playstyle. If you like having your DPS-ey fighter, be my guest.) :)

I play Sorcerer too. My point concerning Shield Drum is: they're a better distraction if they're hitting things and dealing damage than ineffectively rapping their shields and hoping for the best. I am pretty sure that different enemy types follow A.I. routines similar to pawn inclinations. Wargs for instance seem to be Challengers because they LOVE to ignore red vocation taunts and just charge at me when I'm trying to cast spells.

And I've been in way too many situations where there are, say, 2 Gorecyclops, 2 Eliminators, 3 Sirens, oh, and then the 3 Wargs show up for good measure. Some fighter pawn uses Shield Drum nearby. Does it work? Two Wargs, one Siren, and one Eliminator rearing up to charge at me and get all up in my face at the same time say "no."

Originalmente postado por Rizilliant:

Shield Drum works just fine..

PS: Dragons Maw often leaves your fighter bent over, huffing and puffing because it drained them completely of stamina..Unless they fight with heed to health, and stamina...

1. I'd love to see some videos of this "working as intended". I've been in plenty of fights just recently and testing this specifically, since BBI has rooms packed with hordes of enemies, and red vocation taunts are barely working to draw attention. There is one circumstance where I see them work consistently and reliably: against Griffins. A taunt against a flying Griffin will reliably provoke them to use the dive attack.

2. No, that's not really true. As with all things where people say it's amazing (like Flurry of any sort, or Skull Splitter) it's very random if pawns spam the use of skills. It's actually very rare for them to do it in my game, regardless of skill or vocation. I could just as well say that I constantly see archers reeling, catching their breath from spamming Five/Ten-Fold Flurry, when in truth that's just an outlier. Dragon's Maw is a very high damage attack which will keep surrounding enemies glued to a fighter. At most I see them use it 2-3 times in a row without running out of Stamina. Even when they do, it's like with Rangers who drop a Great Gamble or Tenfold-- the effect or massive damage output is usually worth the lapse in their actions followed by running out of Stamina. I actually wish they'd do it more than just take potshots with a skill here and there and then cycle to the next one.


Bonus problem with Shield Drum: it has some appended animation frames that leaves the fighter vulnerable. They can't block or attack while using it, meaning they're open to take hits. This is why I remember some people on the PS3 arguing you should never upgrade it from Shield Summons, which is equally inane in my mind, because Shield Summons has a lower effective range.

To sum up a fundamental issue: one portion of people in this thread are saying "Shield Drum works fine when you time it right or under the right circumstances." Then you have people saying "Shield Drum works reliably all the time."

I'd love to hear from other people who really take the time to observe if pawns can properly use this skill, or if it really works consistently or not. My verdict is that it sometimes just flat out decides not to work, making it a terrible skill.

As for the argument that anybody wants fighters to just be dumb meat shields, I counter that I'd rather want a meat shield can actually dish out some hurt themselves. It's not mutually exclusive.

[Prawn of Creation]

BurlsoL: some nice info for the thought, thanks!

She was definitely not wasting her time in combat, with all those "missing" shield skill slots, tho. And hindsight sweep was used not so often when she had sheltered assault equipped too, cause most of the time she just chose to use that (quite ineffective, as I mentioned).

One thing that is particularly interesting — are you sure shield strength stat affects blocks? Some info source would be nice :)

[cyäegha]

without shield skills? eh, i can deal with it, it'd be more catastrophic if they were missing sword skills or something

without a shield? lolno, wouldn't even consider hiring them as they'd then be no better than a warrior, with less knockdown to boot