Story questions, spoilers obviously

[Timba]

Please bear with me, I am kind of annoyed by the game, but curious what I might have missed.

So, I finished the main story line a few days ago and wondered about the story.
From the Bitterblack Isle I only finished 2 bosses, a cyclops and a beholder, but had no passion left to finish everything. I ran around in these endless pit at the end, but I found it confusing and not very joyful. And the Ur-Dragon was not around, so I deleted the game.

Could be I was not an awful lot of attentive at the cutscenes, though.

So, assuming from the theme and introlevel, there is an eternal cycle with an reoccuring dragon and there is always an arisen with his pawn. There are multiple arisen alive at the same time, because not everyone kills the dragon?

The dragon brings monsters and destruction.
Or is it like in Shadowrun, the world awakens and the dragon does what angry dragons do. But in reality they hold the bigger threats in check?

Is the player the first finish the cycle or is killing the dragon breaking the cycle?
Is having a deal with the dragon and sacrificing the beloved a beginning of the new cycle and killing the dragon the break of it?
The guy from the introlevel, I assume he did not make it?
Why does the dragon create those arisen if they are the only ones who could be a threat to him?

The goblins and cultists mentioned Chaos a lot, do they do the will of the dragon or are they just misguided by their own blindness and thirst for power?

What was up with this blond guy (duelling Mercedes), he was infiltrating the cultists, too? Why the rebellion at some point?

What happened and happens at Bitterblack Isle, I neither have the time and patience to play everything again.

So, why and what and why again?

And the biggest question of them all, why the heck was my beloved Reynard? I did so many quests for so many people (and Reynards was the last), but why did this game assume he was my ♥♥♥♥ing beloved? Even the stupid princess, what was wrong with her? And with the fool? What was wrong with these people?
I dont need a beloved, I was playing Leon the professional, along with Matilda as pawn.

[Elghin]

Tl;Dr from what I remember, an arisen that kills the dragon becomes the next dragon when the cycle renews again. Kind of an interesting way to look at the way NG+ works if you take killing the dragon the next time around as killing the previous incarnation of the dragon.

Continuing on the story, when you collect 20 wakestones and turn them in, you kill the "Seneschal" whom effectively oversees the cycle. Basically... you kill God. And then you become God. IIRC, anyway.

The story behind Bitterblack actually does require that you pay attention to the stone Epitaph that you collect stone plates for throughout the dungeon as well as the echoes and cutscenes.

The TL;DR here is that Bitterblack is run by an Arisen that outright refused the Dragons Gambit and responded with hate.

[Elghin]

As for the Beloved, it's basically comes down to whoever you give the most gifts to. Just doing the quests sets everyone in equilibrium that you've done quests for and the outcome turns out fairly random without gifts.

I have a friend whose beloved ended up being Fournivals daughter, for all the disturbing implications that offers.

[Timba]

I did not gave gifts to anyone. Maybe the bandit leader a skull or so.

[Elghin]

Did you do the bandit quest? Because quests offer up way more in terms of affinity than just gifts.

[Elghin]

Look at the affinity as working the same way as it does in Dragon Age. You have quests, which gets everyone to trust you, then you have gifts, which change certain aspects of the story.

[godila2]

just do true end, and fail boss battle dont worry and for grigori battle just refuse, you will get restart from checkpoint screen SO SPOILERS grigori is the arisen who dies, so that the reason for never ending cycle

[Timba]

As far I can tell from the complete community guide I finished all quests which were not on the boards.

But why do the dragons create new Arisen? Do they want to die?
I mean if they were Arisen beforehand and become eternal dragons, maybe after some time they want to end their existence?

[Karathrax]

There's an error above.

Dragons are created when an Arisen attempts and then fails to kill the Seneschal. Grigori is a failed Arisen, condemned to repeat the cycle of searching for a soul strong enough to defeat him and eventually to take the place of a weary Seneschal. It is a punishment, not a boon. The Dragon is compelled to seek out the worthy who will not only release the Dragon from the burden of his/her existence, but also go on to the final test of defeating the Seneschal. The Seneschal cannot just die at the end of his/her life and leave the world without a guiding hand; s/he is obligated to make sure there is a successor.

Some of what the soul endures once condemned as a dragon is explained in Grette's dialog in Bitterblack Isle.

There are several tests of character along the journey to the Seneschal's seat. The Arisen's position is one of duty, and failure to fulfill one's duty brings everlasting punishment:

* Do you walk away and sacrifice your true love's life in exchange for political power and immortality, or do you slay the Dragon and destroy Gransys?

* Do you walk away from the Seneschal after defeating the Dragon and return to your life as a mortal peasant? This is what Sofia, Selene's master, did. You will eventually die just like an ordinary human, subject to old age, accident or violence.

* If the Seneschal defeats you, you are reborn as a Dragon. Some of the dragons speak with a human voice, either in English or Wyrmspeak (actually Latin). Some don't speak at all.

The premise behind the game is the Buddhist concept of the Eternal Wheel. Karma destines a soul to be born into the world as a progressively-more evolved/complicated creature, culminating as a human. Presumably, a couple of human lifetimes produce a soul with enough determination and self-will to get the attention of a dragon, which starts the soul's journey towards enlightenment and eventual release from the Eternal Wheel.

The story in Bitterblack Isle is an elaboration on the theme of duty vs. love. It is significantly more understandable and poignant if experienced after completing at least one playthrough of the game.

One of the more interesting features of the game is completing the Seneschal's fight for the second time while offline.

[godila2]

Originally posted by Timba:

As far I can tell from the complete community guide I finished all quests which were not on the boards.

But why do the dragons create new Arisen? Do they want to die?
I mean if they were Arisen beforehand and become eternal dragons, maybe after some time they want to end their existence?

SPOILERS if you didnt do true end
so the senichal=god its arisen who defeated dragon,
intro character killed other senichal and took his place as new one, so if arisen fails he just live forever like king and that old dude, but if arisen dies he becomes new dragon, so this becomes cycle until next arisen is able to defeat dragon, dont forget senichal is imortal untill one who is able to take his place comes, so just think about how many arisen failed the challange, you meat intro character as senichal you cant just live normal live, so whole thing is about un ending cycle, so thats why you kill your self, so cycle ends?

here is video for true end, but its not mine,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sS4JsIAOuvk
and here is video for failing last boss battle
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mb3MqiLYlDs

[Timba]

Thanks guys, I really, really appreciate it :)

Just watched the first video so far, the next comes tomorrow. Oh snap, I did not beat the last boss. I thought the wakestones would just trigger a NG+.

Just to sum it up and look if I got it right:

Sometimes people are born who strive for enlightment.
One of them got a Seneschal, as there must be one at a time for all time.
If one person tried to defeat the Seneschal and looses, he becomes a dragon.
Dragons attack civilisations to find people worthy/brave enough to become Arisen.
These Arisen hunt after the dragon, and after the Seneschal at the end again, to free him of his burden.
If an Arisen becomes the new Seneschal he has to give up his mortal body, but his Pawn gets it as a boon so the Pawn becomes a mortal human with his own life and the possibility of own choices?


A few former Arisen were:
The dead Lady in the witchwoods who chose to be mortal after the dragon.
The Duke chose to sacrifice his beloved for power and wealth before the dragon.
The Seneschal who defeated the former Seneschal.
The Guy at Hillfigure Gnoll was on the hunt after the dragon at some time but gave up I suppose? He is immortal, but died as soon as his connection with Grigori was severed.




What happens with my case, I defeated the dragon, but got never to the Seneschal.
There is no dragon to find new Arisen to close the cycle.

[The Commendatore]

There are multiple worlds, each with their own Dragon(ness) and Seneschal. The Pawns themselves tell you that it's possible to guide another Pawn into your world through Riftstones and the Everfall. At the end, if you choose to, you can break the cycle for your world.

The three Arisen you meet on Bitterblack Isle are all from a different world(s). If you kill Grigori, Barroch is unaffected whereas the Dragonforged dies. Barroch also hasn't reclaimed his heart as his dialogue states he has no interest in leaving Bitterblack Isle. Olra, while a Pawn, is also unaffected. And Daimon who was cursed by the Dragon (though not Grigori) is also unaffected.

When the Dragon dies, all Arisen who have not reclaimed their heart will age the amount of time that their heart was kept, hence why the Dragonforged died and Duke Edmun aged a lot.

Killing Grigori doesn't end the Cycle; the Arisen has to face the Seneschal who oversees the Cycle indefinitely until he/she is succeeded by the current Arisen. If the present Arisen fails defeating the Seneschal, he/she will be "reborn" into the world as the Dragon and everything begins anew. The latter being a part of the story that takes place in Bitterblack Isle, when an old Arisen, Grette, defeated the Dragon in her world but failed to defeat the Seneschal. She was reborn as the Dragon and searched for Ashe (Daimon) and turned him into the next Arisen. It's a nice bit of story I'd suggest listening and reading in-game.

The pawn isn't given humanity if you choose to become the next Seneschal. Savan had his Pawn at his side when you face him while he's the Seneschal, though on "equal terms, joined by their companions of Old". Selene is more human-like because of the Bestowal of Spirit when her Arisen, Sofiah, died. And even with the Bestowal of Spirit, Pawns don't age; they only take the appearance of their Master. Your Pawn will also get the Bestowal of Spirit with the True Ending.

Neither the Goblins nor cultists follow the Dragon, though the cultists believe they do what the Dragon's presence means for the world. Grigori himself states: "The rantings of an upjumped zealot make for tedious listening. His ilk serves no role in what is to come."

[Timba]

Oh, thanks. :)

Multiple worlds, too.

I had an idea for my last question. Arisen who beat the dragon but never tried to get to the Seneschal have theit hearts back, so they are mortal again?
This would implicate they would become a dragon as soon they die of a natural cause, too.

Hm, if the Pawn take the appearance of the Master, maybe to act as an Avatar on the world, the appearance is only formed by the will of the Arisen?
I mean, at the beginning the Arisen chose the appearance and with enough RCs one can change it again.

Ohman, I guess I have to play it again.

[The Commendatore]

I haven't been able to find some lore on that in-game, so I'll be speculating on that. From what I can tell if an Arisen reclaims his/her heart they'll age again and are mortal. It's possible for a Wakestone to revive the Arisen if he/she has fallen in combat, but not of old age.

It's highly possible for an Arisen to become a Dragon when they die, though I'm not certain if they'll become the Great Dragon like Grigori who is sent to start a new Cycle. There are Drakes and Wyrms on the material plane who talk once defeated, heavily implying they were once Arisen themselves. Then again, as the Seneschal is basically a God of their world, it's possible for the Seneschal to simply "take" the Arisen's soul and sent him/her into the world as the next Great Dragon. Or perhaps the rift that's caused after Grigori is killed will eventually destroy the world, and the Seneschal rebuilds it and starts it all over.

I personally think the Art of Metamorphosis is just there for you to make changes to your character and not related to anything lore-specific. During the post-game you can get one that gives you infinite uses to change your character and Pawn's appearance. I just think it's there for people who aren't pleased with how their character or Pawn turned out in-game (character creation screen really isn't that accurate), or if you just want to try different character looks.

[Timba]

Thanks again, very interesting.

I really played the game for the combatsystem, not the lore.
The storytelling, characters and a few other things seem ridiculously dull.

But in the end, it was all hidden in little details, gorgeous! At least the lore about the cycle.