Mage Useless

[Gerald Barrett]

Im new to this game and have been playing a mage character because the spells in this game looked cool but atm my character is absolutly useless, i was wondering how long into the story i have to get to get better spells?

[zadymek]

1. Yes, Mage Arisen is basically useless. The Vocation is clearly designed for a Pawn and in Pawns' hands it's very useful. At least untill one "git gud" in combat and learn how to cope without the support of course.
2. Never. I mean, this Vocation is a support one so, I'd advise changing it as soon as possible - Lvl 10 unlocks new Vocations IIRC- to Sorcerer. If you want access to better spells that is.

[BurlsoL]

Originally posted by zadymek:

1. Yes, Mage Arisen is basically useless. The Vocation is clearly designed for a Pawn and in Pawns' hands it's very useful. At least untill one "git gud" in combat and learn how to cope without the support of course.

Not exactly.

Early game, Ingle and Levin are more than enough to deal with most enemies as long as you have pawns to keep you protected. Fire boon will change your light attack and make it fire based so you can take advantage of weaknesses found in harpies, wolves, goblins, and undead. Levin will work well against cyclopses. All these will do more damage at low levels than your standard attacks will from other classes. It is only at postgame where the damage a mage does starts to become lackluster. Now I can hear you screaming in the background about how sorcs have higher damage staffs and larger area effect spells. This is true, but sorc doesn't have some of the more useful support abilities like Grapnel, anodyne, and spellscreen. The later two can be useful against spectres when paired with a debilitating weapon. Meanwhile all those fancy sorc spells require longer casting times so can sometimes end up feeling less dynamic unless you intentionally just use the smaller AoE spells that mages get.

Mage is a support class. It is based around the premise of support instead of offensive power. The implication here is that you would be more pressed with trying to build a capable party instead of steamrolling through everything on your own. But again, you don't even need to worry about this for the first main section of the game since the spells you get with mage, and the staffs you get are more than enough to deal with every encounter, even solo.

[zadymek]

Originally posted by BurlsoL:

Early game, Ingle and Levin are more than enough to deal with most enemies as long as you have pawns to keep you protected.

I've bold the key part. The team, that's exactly what you just starting to develop and learn about in the beginning. That is, let's say, a more in-depth gameplay, the one that works but doesn't give one "WOW!" effect. And also your Pawns are morons at the beginning so it's not that simple ;)

Originally posted by BurlsoL:

Fire boon will change your light attack and make it fire based so you can take advantage of weaknesses found in harpies, wolves, goblins, and undead. Levin will work well against cyclopses. (...)but sorc doesn't have some of the more useful support abilities like Grapnel, anodyne, and spellscreen.

Yes, and Holy Fr**** Bolt will tear anything to shreds, and Spellscreen plus Rusted Staff is OP aso. Yes, but the man in OP wanted the cool stuff. There isn't any in Mage Vocation.
Also, the key argument here is "provided you don't have access to Sorcerer".

Also, all those toys are team toys one can't appreciate without a good team and know how about it (and proper attitude above all else). You know it, I know it (and I'm planning a Mage manual that will highlight all those benefits), but 1st time players don't. So, have them play as Sorc.

Originally posted by BurlsoL:

Mage is a support class.

That alone sums it all up. And "as we all know" no one want's to play as support ;)
Not mentioning it is awfully painful to play as one in this game :( Thus I advise burdening a Pawn with this Vocation.

[Migromul]

Hm. there are some offensive supporters. MK, MA, even Strider and Ranger with some skills. But mage is more a pure supporter, with his offensive spells as "oh-♥♥♥♥-skills"... Although Ingle (and the improved versions) is an all-time-must-have imho, even as Sorcerer.

[capricorn1971ad ® ٿ]

Originally posted by Migromul:

Hm. there are some offensive supporters. MK, MA, even Strider and Ranger with some skills. But mage is more a pure supporter, with his offensive spells as "oh-♥♥♥♥-skills"... Although Ingle (and the improved versions) is an all-time-must-have imho, even as Sorcerer.

how often will you use ingle postgame?

see, thats the whole thing, the needs really are different at different points in the game.

there is no point in the game that a supporting mage isn't useful in some way shape or form.

there are points in the game that a sorcerer can be useless or near useless.

Mage is boring to play as an arisen.

[BurlsoL]

Originally posted by zadymek:

Originally posted by BurlsoL:

Early game, Ingle and Levin are more than enough to deal with most enemies as long as you have pawns to keep you protected.

I've bold the key part. The team, that's exactly what you just starting to develop and learn about in the beginning. That is, let's say, a more in-depth gameplay, the one that works but doesn't give one "WOW!" effect. And also your Pawns are morons at the beginning so it's not that simple ;)
.

Rook is fairly useful for the first section, and even if you did something silly like make your main pawn a mage to give you a three mage party, this would give you plenty of firepower to get through all the content you are meant to before Gran Soren as well as a fair stretch after. You can do a 3 mage party afterward if you so desired as well, and still do reasonably well since you can provide coverfire for eachother. As previously mentioned, for the early game, mages will do more damage than other classes, especially against larger enemies. The matter here is not so much that you need good pawns, just pawns which are traveling with you and mostly capable of fighting. But this is true for most classes in early game, a fighter without a party will just get knocked around by wolves and dragged off if they aren't particularly capable.

"WOW" effect spells definitely need capable pawns with you to buy you time to cast. You can't make due with just anything, and have no experience avoiding attacks and expect to get off most sorc spells. So better to learn earlier on as a mage, when it isn't so necessary.

Originally posted by capricorn1971ad ® ٿ:

how often will you use ingle postgame?

Quite frequently. It is one of the fastest casting spells and useful at all points of the game due to how common undead and enemies weak to fire are. For small groupings it becomes more practical to use Ingle instead of trying to maintain holy enchant every encounter. Being targeted it can have more utility than other fire spells. It also has a decently high stagger chance making Grand Ingle useful even against large enemies.

[zadymek]

Originally posted by BurlsoL:

Rook is fairly useful for the first section, and even if you did something silly like make your main pawn a mage to give you a three mage party, this would give you plenty of firepower to get through all the content you are meant to before Gran Soren as well as a fair stretch after. You can do a 3 mage party afterward if you so desired as well, and still do reasonably well since you can provide coverfire for eachother. (...)

1. Rook will be constantly unconcius even during piss poor Saurian fights.
2. And your wonderful pack o Mages will get murdered by the first Ranger bandits. Heck, my Mage Arisen was, Pawn will be for sure. At least untill you get Focused Bolt, but it still will be far from "over 9000", and boring.
3. Before they toughen Mage Pawns will...wait a minute, weren't we talking about Mage Arisen vs Mage Pawn? I argued that Mage will work better on Pawns, so...are you proving my point? ;)
4. Anyway, as for overall Mage Vocation dissertation.

The major problems with Mage Vocation are:
- this is a strictly team based Vocation, at least till he get's HFB (you agree I see).
- it doesn't excell at any cathegory while being inferior in majority of them (check wiki if you need details).
Is he the best supporter? Nope, can't cure all debils, enchantments are single target and Anodyne is ineffective in a long run.
Is he the best damage dealer. That's a rhetorical question ;)
Does he excell in any stats? Actually he's the hardest hit in this department having the worst summary stat growth of all Vocations. (again wiki shows details)
Does Mage play a significant part in gameplay? Yes.
Do Pawns work better as supports. Also yes.
Are Pawns better damage dealers? That is another rhetorical question.

tl;dr This Vocation was clearly created with Pawns in mind.
That's why your Pawn shoud be a Mage not you.

Originally posted by capricorn1971ad ® ٿ:

how often will you use ingle postgame?

see, thats the whole thing, the needs really are different at different points in the game.

there is no point in the game that a supporting mage isn't useful in some way shape or form.

there are points in the game that a sorcerer can be useless or near useless.

Mage is boring to play as an arisen.

1. It's not a matter of early vs post game, it's a matter of utility. And High Ingle is actually the ONLY Mage spell that can be aimed at the target like a bow, from a far, outside aggro range actually. And when fully charged it kicks ass. And even when it's too weak one can use debilitating staff with it to, say, slow down the enemy, and it'll do it with one salvo.
2. Yes, so what? We were talking about early game.
3. The question is: is he necessary?
4. Name one pls.
5. Agree.