Medium-to-Long Range Infantry Weapons

[Whiskey144]

This is just a bit of stream-of-consciousness rambling about midrange/long-range weaponry in AFF, in particular weapons which could fulfill a "marksman" role.

So, for mid-to-long range firefights, you'll generally have a few options: the basic rifles, the HMGs (TT4 and MGA), as well as the Taldis SAR, DK31, TS20, and the L9R. I include the Niner purely due to the fact that it's a bit of a hybrid between a megadeath sniper rifle and a rapid-fire marksman rifle.

So, the basic rifles are not especially good at medium-to-long range shooting; a combination of base accuracy and recoil severely hamper the weapons. While the DK11A theoretically has good long-range performance, the recoil penalties and somewhat poor base accuracy lessen the impact. It's still capable at short-to-medium ranges, but trying to "reach out and touch somebody" is not so good.

In a similar fashion, the Imperial P6i suffers from the same, but worse; the accuracy isn't as good as the DK11A, and so it can't handle long-range firing. That said, the Pax is a superb CQB rifle, and at present I'm actually using it as a primary short-range weapon with a shield projector.

For the HMGs, the TT4 and MGA, the TT4 totally outclasses the MGA at mid/long range firing. Up close, they're about the same, with a slight edge to the MGA if it can spin up to around 33-50% heat load. This said, the TT4's main advantage for longer distances is sheer weight of fire; it overcomes problems with accuracy and recoil by crouching, using the burst mode, and simply spamming 180 bullets at things.

So now we get to the DK31 and the SAR- I don't include the EVR because it's not good at anything beyond midrange. The DK31 should almost never be used in burst mode; for longer distances, tap-firing in full-auto is the way to go. Building the weapon for long range will come down to underbarrel choice, as receiver mods should always be dual coolant mods. A grav clamp can improve applied damage at range, due to the recoil reduction.

It's also not bad for CQB, considering the hipfire bonus.

Similarly, the SAR is actually quite good for midrange and longer-ish-range combat; the burst mode, in combination with a marksman barrel, grav clamp, and either a 4x scope or the 7x active, gives it good applied damage at range. You'll most likely need to pop a squat, but realistically any long range shooting will have to occur while crouched to maximize accuracy.

As an aside, ammo choice for the TT4, SAR, or MGA when considering longer-ranged use should, if at all possible, be Hardpoint; Corrosive is best used for very specific purposes, whilst the effects of Shock and Incendiary are arguably less useful than the material penetration of the Hardpoint ammo. Being able to shoot through an opponent's cover is quite valuable; it also makes the TT4 and MGA fairly dangerous to the light transport/FAVs and gunships.

Obviously, for medium-to-long range shooting, the League Aeger TS20 marksman rifle is pretty much king; it can 3-shot to the body pretty much any infantry build in the game, and 2-shot many others. In terms of 'build', the active scope, Hardpoint rounds, and IMO no barrel mod (though that's due to the ugly clipping issues of the barrel mods on the TS20).

The L9R is pretty respectable, but it's much more demanding of your accuracy and patience. It really depends on a full spool in order to deal massive damage- and massive it is; you can pretty much kill any infantry player in, at most, 2 shots. Most light armor users will be killed in just one body shot.

Oh, and again, you want Hardpoint rounds.

And a minor PSA about Hardpoint rounds: not only do they enable cover penetration, but you also get increased penetration of players, which means beastmode collateral kills.

As far as which of these weapons does the best at the marksman role, it's pretty much the TS20 at the top, with the SAR being a somewhat distant second; the L9R is too dependant on getting a full spool, while the TT4 and MGA compensate for a lack of accuracy with volume of fire.

The P6i and the DK11A simply don't have the accuracy, or the capacity, to make the grade. The DK31 is not very good at the job, due to the heat load issues it will deal with at longer ranges (but it is super-dangerous at short-to-medium range).

So the simple version would be: TS20>>>>>SAR/L9R>>TT4/MGA=DK31>DK11A>P6i

The L9R is lumped with the SAR due to be capable, but better suited to other applications.

[Whiskey144]

Yeah, apparently during ARMA 3's development they managed to get a deal where the devs actually went out and got to handle/shoot the weapon, as well as take a lot of pics/looks at the design schematics to do a faithful reproduction in the game.
It's got one of the better sounds (and between it and the NATO anti-material rifle I much prefer the general design/sound of the Lynx).

Of course, ARMA 3 does also have a series of totally fictional weapons (MX-series), the Iranian KH2002 (Katiba series), the CheyTac Intervention (M320 LRR), and the General Dynamics LWMMG (SPMG .338).

And a bizarre 9.3x64mm Brenneke chambered version of the HK MG5.

[Whiskey144]

Just wanted to throw out some 'updated' observations of mine:

Having retried the "Marksman Pax" build, of the P6i with Marksman Barrel, Grav Clamp, and 4x scope, I can say it is actually quite respectable; it's capable out to about 100 meters, though I do feel that the SAR is still the better long-range specific weapon (in part because the Pax is actually pretty handy at short/mid range).

I think the biggest change was that I wasn't trying to tag enemies that were some 170+ meters away, but trying to stick to closer-ish ranges of about 70-100 meters. It did pretty well in that area; I also think that Hardpoint rounds helped quite a bit (IIRC the last time I tried I was using Incendiary rounds as well as rather foolishly trying to plink away from something like 170-180 meters).

Compared to, say, real life, pretty short- but for most shooters that's actually quite insane for an AR to reach out to 100 meters with ease (you will need to use the burst mode though).

I also think that the range of engagement in AFF is probably a bit longer than Battlefield, though it depends on some things like what the enemy team is doing, what is your team doing, what map are you on, what Stage of the attack are you on, what you specifically are geared to do, etc.

As an example, on Stage 1 of Fortress, it's probably better to stick to short-to-medium range weapons, or even pure CQB weapons, since each objective is either in a very close-quarters friendly location, or is sited with a few good chokepoints. OTOH, you might also try going long-range to pick people off when they try and grab the Fire Control capture.

For Stage 1 on Errah, however, it's a totally different story; you really need a long range weapon, but you also need, a short-range weapon. Two of the three objectives are clustered about 3 feet from each other, while the third is in a building. In both cases, you need CQB kit to defend people who are on the objectives, attack said objectives, or counter-assault to retake them (since all the objectives on Errah were changed to Spike-plant hacks).

And of course things change quite a bit in Stage 2 and 3 of Fortress; Stage 2 long range weapons are much more important due to the amount of open ground the League team has to cover ot get to the door hacks, and then Stage 3 both are important because there's still a good amount of long sightlines, but you have to mix it up in close to actually take the Officer's Quarters capture point.

Stage 2 of Errah is mostly more of the same, while Stage 3 introduces the importance of CQB weapons since it's all a closely-clustered urban zone. Yin Tao Shan is a little all over the place; it's a bit more like Errah considering that you need to have both CQB and long range weapons on hand (or else methods to compensate for a lack of either).

[[2vN] BrotherLazarus]

Most service rifles are zeroed to about 300 meters, most of my own training (non-military tactical, too beat up to get a uniform of my own) was to engage out to about 300 meters with most long arms (even the 5.56mm, much as I dislike it, is capable)...

From experience both training with the equipment, and repairing it (for the devs)...

1. Pistols are generally effective out to as far as 50 yards, but average is closer to 20.
2. Subguns are generally effective out to about 100 yards, depending on chambering, but since they use handgun rounds, the slug is dropping like a rock at that distance.
3. Riot/military unchoked shotguns (for use of ball or buck without a barrel/choke swap) are effective to about 80 yards (buckshot) or 200 yards (slug).
4. PDWs and assault rifles with modern loads are effective out to about 300 yards (even with 6 inch barrels).
5. PDWs and assault rifles with odder loads (6.5 Grendel, 6.5 Creedmoor) are effective out to at -least- 800 yards (*the latter is actually effective past 1200, but video games generally lack that kind of distance)
6. Anything built as a DMR/sniper platform is going to be a very reliable in terms of small groupings at any of these ranges, provided the shooter doesn't rush; but is going to be abhorrent at closer ranges unless built around an assault rifle chassis (DMR variants of the M16 family, the M14's modern offerings, etc) simply due to the barrel length.

Ya'll have done a great job on point 6, for the most part. 1-4 could use a little more tweaking (especially that Krinkov lookin guy, that's a large enough magazine to be rocking at -least- something balistically similar to the 6.5 Grendel). 5 is... odd and not relevant here really--outside of, say, the plasma/laser weapons.

[Whiskey144]

I think the biggest thing we'd run into making such changes is that the current map design doesn't really allow for shooting further than about 350 meters for any weapons.

As far as the list you've provided:

-I've gotten a couple of odd kills with the Imperial EVP pistol at 50 meters, but only a few; most of the time the pistols are probably best off much closer, at 10-20 meters (so pretty much 'real life' ready). The SM54 revolver, in particular, suffers from a lot of accuracy issues that keep it from reaching past 20-30 meters.

-I've not done much testing as to the limits of SMG range, but that's mostly because I tend to equip SMGs in the sidearm slot alongside two other guns, where it's either a backup secondary, or tertiary weapon. That said, the one or two times I've tried using the YAS13, it seemed to have better range than the Aeger TA (ULA subgun) or the Salier P4 (Imperial version).

-Shotguns in AFF have pretty short "optimal" kill ranges. That said, you can use barrel mods to tighten up accuracy, and the ASG10 has pretty good projection with a rail or marksman barrel. The Imperial Sikfrit S77 auto-shotgun, unfortunately, has little use beyond loading incendiary rounds and doing ridiculous DPS to drop pods and breachpoints (a bizarre use, to be frank).

-Carbines and ARs, I've not played much with the A420 (I think it's a tad ugly and sounds awful), and the FKR is superb at subgun ranges, so I tend to use it as a CQB-oriented weapon, and thus I'm not sure if the FKR can reach out further.

The P6i is capable if you set it up right. That's really the catch with the Pax; for the particular range you want to use it for, you have to specialize it. The DK11A can kind of get away with a rail barrel+3x sight and do well up to probably 60-70 meters, or perhaps more; I'll need to do a little testing on that. For the Pax it really needs the marksman barrel for the accuracy bonus if you want any kind of ranged performance. Set up right though, I'm confident a Pax could outshoot the Deke at long distance.

As far as weapon calibers, AFF uses a gamut of made-up cartridges... some of which are rather, inconsistent, to say the least.

The information is a mixture of lore-wise and in-game date; where lore and game data contradict I've specifically noted that

-the ULA's UDP pistol, DK11A rifle, and TS20 DMR all supposedly use the same 8.13mm GAR rounds (sort of; the TS20 uses the 'lighter' GAR-AP variant); in-game the UDP loads 6mm RS (the same as the Aeger TA and YAS13 SMGs) while the TS20 uses the 16mm RF (identical to the Aeger TT4 HMG).

-similarly, the Taldis SAR is supposedly an automatic rifle loading 8.13mm GAR, but in-game it uses the 12mm UDEI cartridge, which is also used by the Sikfrit-Maller 54 revolver and the Salier MGA machine gun.

-in-game the Avex EVP and Salier P4 use the 7.1mm RSS cartridge, however the wiki lists the EVP as using the 6mm UU ammunition type; the Salier P6i, Taldis A420, and Falken FKR are all listed as using the 7.4mm RSM round

-the P8 technically uses the 7.4mm RSM round as well, but IIRC it loads something else in-game wise (I don't know off-hand, as I rarely touched the P8); the wiki also lists it as being compatible with a 7.4mm RSL ammo type

-the TT4 uses the 16mm RF cartridge, which in-game is also used by the TS20

-the shotguns, the Corps-Miyaki ASG10 and the Sikfrit S77, use the GAD 22mm and RD 15mm rounds, respectively, per the wiki. In-game the S77 uses a larger-bore round (I don't remember off-hand, unfortunately).

-the Sikfrit L9R "Longblade" uses 'Screwtip' AV/AM 18mm rounds

-the energy weapons load GLSP 0.1mm (DK31), and for the EVR it's either U 6/8mm (in-game, wiki chart) or 8mm UB class (wiki entry).

Oh, and for specialty rounds, it's either 6mm INCEN/ACID/HARD/SHOCK, or 8mm, or 15mm.

So, the recap of what's in-game:

6mm RS: UDP, TA, YAS13
7.1mm RSS: EVP, P4
7.4mm RSM: P6i, A420, FKR, P8 (?)
8.13mm GAR: DK11A
12mm UDEI: SM54, SAR, MGA
16mm RF: TT4, TS20
18mm AV/AM: L9R

and then skipping the shotguns and energy weapons. And also the heavy weapons.

For the conversion of those to 6/8/15 special-ammo types, it's as follows:

6mm RS, 7.1mm RSS: 6mm INCEN
7.4mm RSM, 8.13mm GAR: 8mm INCEN
12mm UDEI, 16mm RF, 18mm AV/AM: 15mm INCEN
Shotgun rounds: 6mm INCEN

So, yeah. There's some internal consistency stuff in the syntax that needs a little work (how does a 12mm round go up to 15mm, after all).

One thing to remember is that most FPS games simply don't have the map sizes to support much combat outside of 300 meters, so be necessity of design and game balance, they have to contract a lot of the ranges.

I mean, sure, there is ARMA, which decided to make bigger maps instead of making shorter ranges, but ARMA is kind of the exception that proves the rule.

Quick Edit: an interesting detail when perusing the wiki reveals that the YAS13 is technically classed as a carbine, and not an SMG. Why this was changed in the current 'game state' is probably to offer a cross-faction SMG choice, and the YAS13 lacked any substantial stock (unlike the FKR) and was somewhat compact (unlike the A420), so it got the short straw.

Also interesting is the "Heavy" 'nfc' (IE, cross-faction) weapon listed, the "GU34". Of particular interest is that "Heavy" corresponds to the DK31 and EVR energy rifles, and not the anti-tank weapons. Unfortunately there is no actual page for the GU34.

The Speculation Train has naturally left the station (at least for me it has).

[[2vN] BrotherLazarus]

I'm not suggesting that they swap ranges out like that--I don't think any of the maps... well, no. Three of the ground combat maps have enough distance to justify it, but nothing else does (the speed of the SMG and power of the shotgun would make it the de-facto use in boarding actions--realistic, sure, fun? Not really.)... I just felt like providing some input based on real world data, and some feedback. I'm kind of a snarky jerk, so half the time my commentary comes out a lot less nice than it's intended to. ;)

Something I'd actually really recommend for the recoil balancing is for the devs to hit up someone they know with a bit of an armory (shooting range, cop shop, whatever is amenable) and study some recorded footage of firing stuff off. Everything has its own distinct recoil profile (for example, the 1911 kinda... rolls up and tilts to the right, while the M9 jerks nearly straight up, and the Glock pushes more back than up due to the lower bore axis).

Each weapon could stand to get its own recoil impulse--later, after a lot of other features have been checked out. Adds more character and diversity than a more common Cone of Shame (that conical randomized scatter pattern), which would also give players that use them regularly an advantage as they'd learn to "ride the recoil" of their chosen weapon. It's not a required addition, I'm not going to get up in arms if it's not found... but it certainly would add some flair and personality to each weapon that the more often used CoS scatter doesn't. It's also relatively simple, as once you have the curve for the rise/tilt/walk values (vertical, diagonal, and horizontal travel respectively), you just assign a variable to each weapon for each. I mean the code is a little more complicated than that, but not by much.

[Whiskey144]

Well, right now the ASG10 is de facto in boarding assaults considering that it can, at most, 2-shot any infantry (3 if they have an underslung shield projector that is both turned on and pointed at you).

Also, an interesting detail about the recoil model right now is that for weapons with both full-auto and burstfire modes, the burst mode will actually increase RoF, decrease recoil, and I think it also improves accuracy.

It's most noticeable on the Taldis SAR, Salier P6i, and the Aeger TT4. The Salier P4 and MGA are difficult to notice it on, due to the fact that both have fairly high full-auto RoF, and in the case of the P4 the recoil bonus isn't very relevant for its intended range, while for the MGA it's RoF is very dependent on its heat buildup.

As a short list of weapons which are both full-auto and burst capable:

-AIA Salier P6i, P4, MGA
-Taldis SAR, A420
-ULA Aeger TA, TT4
-ULA Corps-Miyaki DK31
-the YAS13

It's also worth noting that the cross-faction Falken FKR as well as the ULA pistol, the Corps-Miyaki UDP, are the only two weapons which are semi-auto/burst mode; everything else is pretty much full-auto/burst, outside of AFAIK two exceptions (the Sikfrit S77 shotgun and the Corps-Miyaki DK11A are full-auto/semi-auto only, while the sniper weapons, Avex EVP, and Sikfrit-Maller 54 are semi-auto locked).