Nimble Analysis with Attachment Rework | Calculations

[turtle225]

Edit (01/21/2021): Added LPR with Noble Mail tests to studies 4-6. Amended LPR conclusion in Conclusions.
Edit (11/16/2021): Added Zweihander Hat study to the calculations.

Introduction

With the recent nerf to Bone Plates, and buffs to Kraken Plate and Lindwurm Cloak, I wanted to take another look at how to evaluate attachments for my Nimble bros. With Hyena in the mix as well, we have more options now rather than just automatically choosing Bones like we did in the past.

To keep this somewhat organized and digestible, I decided to start with the question of "if I want to use this Nimble line, how should I consider the attachments?" Then I tweaked that line with the various attachments to see how they compared to that line at base.

TL:DR conclusions at the end if you don't care about methodology or data.

Methodology

Using the calculator[github.com], how I'm going to score each test is the average mean number of hits they take to die against the 35 enemies in the test gauntlet (the test will give 35 means, then I mean the means for the score). The enemies are drawn from all factions and most weapon types are represented. However, there is a bias toward more dangerous enemies (ie: 4 Chosen tests, no Weidergangers). Enemy perks and weapon logic is factored.

I've got 7 Nimble lines being used as jump-off points, to which I add attachments or switch armor pieces around to see how things change.

Read Nimble lines as (Helmet/Body/Nimble%).

The Nimble lines being tested are as follows:

• 140/120/40% (Assassin Metal Mask + Assassin Robes)
  
• 120/95/40% (Sallet + Leather Lamellar)
  
• 190/65/40% (Barbute + Gambeson)
  
• 40/160/40% (Necro Hat + Noble Mail) + Steelbrow
  
• 120/160/47% (Sallet + Noble Mail)
  
• 160/160/51% (Zweihander Hat + Noble Mail)
  
• 190/160/55% (Barbute + Noble Mail)

Note when reading the data, that I will list the added attachment value in the Nimble line. So when I put Lindwurm onto Assassin Robes I list that as 180. Please don't confuse this in thinking I've changed the armor. I will point out in each study where the armor changes.

Assumptions

• Nimble and Colossus are already assumed.
  
• Enemies will have their respective perks/weapon skills in play.
  
• 100% hit chance

Disclaimers

• This is an obvious oversimplification compared to true gameplay conditions.
  
• Scoring is not perfect. For example, surviving a Boondock Bow shot is given the same weight as surviving a Chosen Mace. This interaction favors the heavier armor, as they do better against the weak attackers.
  
• The score doesn't tell the full story of course. Just because a line scores the highest in the enemy gauntlet, doesn't necessarily mean it is always to best choice.
  
• Kraken Plate value will be slightly inflated, because I didn't code the calculator to turn it off and on as ranged units are tested.
  
• Bone Plate value will tend to be slightly inflated, as it assumes that it is still active when the test enemy attacks (ie absorbing a Chosen slam is a lot more valuable than a Reaver Javelin). In game, your Bones won't always be online when the big hitters arrive.
  
• The calculator does not factor hit chances in these tests.
  
• The calculations are obviously biased to the 35 enemies I tested against and the weapons I have given them. I can't test everything.

Results

Please see my post below if you want to dig into the data, as the charts take up too many words and I can't fit it all in the opening post.

Conclusions

• Despite calculator's slight inflation of Kraken Plate value (explained in Disclaimers), I still feel safe in saying that it is now the best Nimble attachment (for durability). Given that it is locked behind the Kraken, you won't get much or any use out of it, but if you do beat the Kraken and continue playing then you can feel good about putting the Plate on a Nimble armor.
  
• Despite the Bone Plate nerf, and slight BP value inflation in a sandbox, BP is still a great option to increase the durability of your Nimble bros.
  
• Lindwurm attachment tended to score slightly worse than BP in every test. However, given BP generally being overvalued in calculators, I feel somewhat safe in saying that they are roughly equal in terms of overall value. Bones will obviously win if it eats a big hit, but Lindwurm would be more consistent, particularly in encounters with a lot of trash damage flying around.
  
• Shedding body armor to fit the cost of Bones/Lindwurm tends to be worth doing so long as it makes sense (ie you wouldn't drop your Assassin Robe).
  
• Shedding head armor to fit the cost of Bones/Lindwurm tended not to be worth doing (ie dropping Assassin Mask for Closed Mail Coif to fit Bones in was not worthwhile).
  
• It is ok to take a small hit to Nimble% to add on Bones or Lindwurm. It will be a net gain overall even on high hp bros.
  
• Hyena/Direwolf attachments will not provide as much durability as the above options, but their secondary effects can make them worth using or even a preferred pick.
  
• Unhold Fur Cloak, while not displayed in these tests, is the best Nimble attachment against Goblins. For example, it outpaces Lindwurm handily, and that was its only potential competition.
  
• LPR (Light Padding Replacement) on Noble Mail will beat out Hyena/Wolf attachments, but tends to be worse than Bones/Lindwurm for survive-ability except with high hp. Can be an option for famed armor depending on how it rolls.
  
• While famed armor is not presented in these tests, I feel pretty comfortable in extrapolating that the conclusions would remain more or less the same.
  
• LPR can be a consideration on some famed heavy armors to stuff into a Nimble bro. Conversely, Lindwurm can be a decent pick if you want to turn a light/medium famed armor into some kind of Nimble Forged build.

Final Thoughts

TL:DR
Basically if there is a takeaway here, it is that Kraken Plate is very good now, Bones/Lindwurm are both solid picks for durability for Nimble and it is ok to lose a few Nimble% to add these attachments. Direwolf/Hyena are a bit weaker so you would only choose them if you like their other effects. Fur Cloak is the best pick for anti-Goblin.

See the data in the post below if you are interested.

Thank you for reading. Has the attachment rework changed your thoughts/approach to Nimble?

[turtle225]

Edit (01/21/2021): Added LPR with Noble Mail tests to studies 4-6.
Edit (11/16/2021): Added Zweihander study as #6. Moved Barbute to #7.

Data is listed below. Recall that the score is the average mean number of hits to die against the 35 enemies in the test sample. Higher scores indicate better average survive-ability.

Study #1 ─ Assassin Set

Since introduced, the Assassin set is easily the go-to Nimble line, powered by the Robes which are practically a min-rolled famed item. The set is however difficult to acquire, so you will unlikely be able to fit your whole team in these without a long playtime.

Metal Mask (140/-6) and Sallet (120/-5) and Zweihander (160/-7) are used for the head. Robes (120/-9) are used for the body.

Nimble Line	80 hp	100 hp	120 hp
140/120/40% Base	6.08	6.89	7.68
140/135/40% Wolf/Hyena	6.32	7.12	7.9
140/150/40% Kraken Plate	7.15	8.02	8.83
140/120/42% Bone Plate	6.87	7.62	8.36
120/120/41% Bone Plate	6.78	7.55	8.29
160/120/44% Bone Plate	6.93	7.65	8.38
120/180/42% Lindwurm	6.65	7.41	8.13

Dropping to Closed Mail Coif (90/-4) was tested for the -FAT attachments, but it scored worse than the shown options.

If using Bone Plates, Assassin Mask is doing better than Sallet (and it looks cooler). Zweihander did even a smidge better than the Mask.

Study #2 ─ 40% Sallet

The Sallet (120/-5) + Leather Lamellar (95/-10) is a cheap and easily accessible balanced Nimble line. It's a safe pick if you don't have Assassin gear.

Sallet is used for the head. Body is L.Lamellar for the neutral attachments and Padded Leather (80/-8) for the -FAT attachments.

Nimble Line	80 hp	100 hp	120 hp
120/95/40% Base	5.49	6.28	7.07
120/110/40% Wolf/Hyena	5.76	6.55	7.34
120/125/40% Kraken Plate	6.48	7.34	8.15
120/95/42% Bone Plate	6.26	7.03	7.74
120/80/40% Bone Plate	6.24	7.04	7.8
120/140/41% Lindwurm	6.13	6.9	7.66

Dropping from L.Lamellar to Padded Leather when using Bone Plates/Lindwurm seems about even in durability while saving 2 Fatigue, and is worth doing.

Study #3 ─ 40% Barbute

This line favors head armor in exchange for weaker body armor. This grants you more total armor overall, and will outscore balanced Sallet on average, but it depends on getting headshot for value. As such, this line works better the more hp you have, as the longer you can survive the more likely you are to get hit in the head multiple times to get your Barbute value.

Barbute (190/-9) is used for the head. Body is Gambeson (65/-6) for the neutral attachments and Necromancer Shirt (60/-4) for the -FAT attachments.

Nimble Line	80 hp	100 hp	120 hp
190/65/40% Base	5.41	6.31	7.15
190/80/40% Wolf/Hyena	5.67	6.57	7.41
190/95/40% Kraken Plate	6.53	7.49	8.38
190/60/40% Bone Plate	6.47	7.32	8.16
190/120/41% Lindwurm	6.33	7.18	8

As this line can drop to Necro Shirt and maintain 40% Nimble, this line basically doesn't care at all about the Bone Plate nerf.

The Barbute + Necro Shirt + Bone Plate line scores favoably well compared to other lines (non Assassin) with a bro that has high hp.

Study #4 ─ Low helmet Steelbrow

This line favors body armor in exchange for low head armor. To compensate and capitalize, it also uses Steelbrow. Note that this line will score higher than other lines, but it is costing an extra perk in Steelbrow. You should not use the 40 hat lines without Steelbrow.

Helmets are Necromancer Hat (40/-0) and the last two are Sallet (120/-5). Body armor is Noble Mail (160/-15) and the last two are Assassin Robes (120/-9). LPR test is also with Sallet.

Desert Stalker Headwrap (45/-0) would be a smidgen better, but are not easy to find/obtain.

Nimble Line	80 hp	100 hp	120 hp
40/160/40% Base	6.16	6.95	7.79
40/175/40% Wolf/Hyena	6.4	7.23	8.05
120/160/42% Light Pad R	6.65	7.44	8.23
40/190/40% Kraken Plate	7.19	8.09	8.92
40/160/42% Bone Plate	6.92	7.69	8.4
40/220/44% Lindwurm	6.76	7.52	8.28
120/120/41% Bone Plate	7.15	7.97	8.79
120/180/42% Lindwurm	7.02	7.83	8.58

Assassin Robes turn out better than Noble Mail if you have those available, even with Steelbrow. Metal Mask (140/-6), Closed Mail Coif (90/-4), and Duelist Hat (70-3) were tested with Assassin Robes as well but were worse than the Sallet.

Study #5 ─ Medium Nimble Sallet

Medium armor Nimble lines tend to do better against weak attackers (like Goblins, Cleavers, and Swords), but make you weaker against heavy hitters like Chosen. The higher your hp becomes, the less you want to use these lines compared to a 40% option.

Helmet is Sallet (120/-5). Body is Noble Mail (160-15)

Nimble Line	80 hp	100 hp	120 hp
120/160/47% Base	5.91	6.59	7.28
120/175/47% Wolf/Hyena	6.17	6.85	7.53
120/160/42% Light Pad R	6.3	7.06	7.81
120/190/47% Kraken Plate	6.95	7.69	8.37
120/160/51% Bone Plate	6.58	7.22	7.82
120/220/53% Lindwurm	6.46	7.08	7.69

Compares decently at 80 hp to 40% Sallet options (non Assassin), but at 120 hp you would want to look elsewhere.

Study #6 ─ Medium Nimble Zweihander

This medium line sits between Sallet and Barbute by using the Zweihander Hat for an aesthetically pleaseing 160/160 base line with Noble Mail.

Helmet is Zweihander Hat (160/-7). Body is Noble Mail (160/-15) and the last two use Assassin Robes (120/-9)

Nimble Line	80 hp	100 hp	120 hp
160/160/51% Base	5.98	6.65	7.30
160/175/51% Wolf/Hyena	6.26	6.93	7.58
160/160/46% Light Pad R	6.4	7.14	7.85
160/190/51% Kraken Plate	7.09	7.82	8.5
160/160/55% Bone Plate	6.73	7.34	7.93
160/220/57% Lindwurm	6.59	7.2	7.81
160/120/44% Bone Plate	6.93	7.65	8.38
160/180/46% Lindwurm	6.76	7.5	8.2

These lines with Noble Mail tend to be beating medium Sallet lines ever so slightly but costing two more Fatigue.

The Zweihander + Assassin set is quite good, even beating the Assassin Mask ever so slighly but costing one more Fatigue.

Assassin Robes are doing better than Noble Mail as they are so much more efficient that it isn't generally worth the loss of Nimble%, if Robes are available.

Study #7 ─ Medium Nimble Barbute

This is about as high as you can go with generic Nimble before severe dropoff in Nimble%. Even these lines are falling off. Best medium set against Necrosavants though if that's the primary concern.

Helmet is Barbute (190/-9). Body is Noble Mail (160/-15) and the last two use Assassin Robes (120/-9)

Nimble Line	80 hp	100 hp	120 hp
190/160/55% Base	5.93	6.56	7.18
190/175/55% Wolf/Hyena	6.22	6.85	7.47
190/160/49% Light Pad R	6.32	7.02	7.73
190/190/55% Kraken Plate	7.05	7.75	8.43
190/160/59% Bone Plate	6.75	7.3	7.88
190/220/61% Lindwurm	6.57	7.15	7.74
190/120/47% Bone Plate	6.89	7.59	8.3
190/180/49% Lindwurm	6.69	7.4	8.09

These lines with Noble Mail tend to be losing to the medium Sallet and Zwerihander lines.

The Barbute + Assassin tends to be beating the medium Sallet lines due to how good the Robes are, but you would be better using the Assassin Mask or Zweihander if available instead of Barbute.

Heraldic Hauberk with LPR was tested, but the Nimble% is high enough to the point where you might as well go with AFP Forge instead.

Thank you for reading.

[JCSato]

Shedding head armor to fit the cost of Bones/Lindwurm tended not to be worth doing (ie dropping Assassin Mask for Closed Mail Coif to fit Bones in was not worthwhile).

This is the most interesting piece to me. Thanks so much for doing this! Really cool stuff, and I like that the playing field for nimble is a little more leveled now.

[damesh2]

What do the numbers under the columns for each row mean? Not familiar with what your calculations represent.

[suejak]

Interesting... Seems to me like bone plating is still the most versatile, with niche uses for lindwurm (or unhold fur cloak!) when you're fighting lots of trash damage (and therefore rarely need an attachment in the first place).

Horn plate obviously fantastic, but I simply don't enjoy even thinking about the kraken, so it's sorta not so fun in that sense.

Worth thinking about some more, I suppose :)

[Heron]

Originally posted by damesh2:

What do the numbers under the columns for each row mean? Not familiar with what your calculations represent.

That's the average of hits survived against the types of enemies listed.

[turtle225]

Originally posted by JCSato:

Shedding head armor to fit the cost of Bones/Lindwurm tended not to be worth doing (ie dropping Assassin Mask for Closed Mail Coif to fit Bones in was not worthwhile).

This is the most interesting piece to me. Thanks so much for doing this! Really cool stuff, and I like that the playing field for nimble is a little more leveled now.

This surprised me too. I had figured with high hp that you would be better off sticking to 40% would be better, even at the cost of headgear.

There's probably some matchups where it is, I didn't look too closely at individual enemies.

Originally posted by suejak:

Horn plate obviously fantastic, but I simply don't enjoy even thinking about the kraken, so it's sorta not so fun in that sense.

Worth thinking about some more, I suppose :)

I will still not be thinking about the Kraken. Should I actually decide to fight him then the Watermill would be the end of the campaign anyway, so not much time for fancy attachments to provide value.

Originally posted by damesh2:

What do the numbers under the columns for each row mean? Not familiar with what your calculations represent.

As Heron mentioned, it is the mean hits to die against the 35 enemy test sample. This was mentioned at the very beginning, but it is easy to gloss over and forget in the wall of text. I added a note at the top of the data too now for clarity, which I should have done to begin with, sorry for the confusion.

[Nasarog]

Very interesting, thank you.

[Teeyo(Chicken&Rice)]

Was waiting for your post since the new patch thanks!!

[Scathe]

interesting numbers, thank you very much. I think studying these numbers that some additional tests may be warranted. sallet + assasin robe + lindwurm at 100hp scored a 7.41, with steel brow it scored a 7.83, up .42 from adding the perk. if barbute lines gain as much from the perk, it would make 40dur hat lines harder to justify using.

edit - for example I would bet that 190/220/61% lindwurm 80hp = 6.57 would gain enough from steel brow to get ahead of 40/220/44% lindwurm, which sits at 6.76 at 80hp

edit2 - maybe I don't need you to run a bunch of steel brow numbers, if you can confirm the theory that 9 lives would add 1.0 to every score, it already does plenty to make the necro hat lines look bad, given 9 lives is not the most popular perk. but there is still some curiosity about the steel brow numbers but only if you really have the spare time.

[Scathe]

also I would personally like to know how sallet + southern mail shirt + hyena attach does in these tests, but it is not a big deal but it is another easily accessible line.

edit - this question has implications for the value of the buildup during levels 1-6 when you don't have nimble... during that time basic mail shirt (115 -12) and southern mail shirt (110 -11) are better than leather lamellar. if I fill my inventory with this best raider gear and discard leather lamellar, how much does it matter when nimble joins the equation and makes the formula more complicated than more dur = better?

[Scathe]

one additional thought, it is probably usually easier to obtain necro shirt + barbute combinations and sallet + assasin robes combinations total combinations between those two sets faster than you can obtain total bone plates + lindwurm attachments, and if not it is probably still worth waiting for the sets (or famed) rather than ever attaching bone plates or lindwurm attachment to a padded leather, as you did in one test.

[damesh2]

Originally posted by turtle225:

Originally posted by JCSato:

Originally posted by damesh2:

What do the numbers under the columns for each row mean? Not familiar with what your calculations represent.

As Heron mentioned, it is the mean hits to die against the 35 enemy test sample. This was mentioned at the very beginning, but it is easy to gloss over and forget in the wall of text. I added a note at the top of the data too now for clarity, which I should have done to begin with, sorry for the confusion.

No problem, part of the confusion is on me. When reading I got to the TL:DR jump to conclusion if you don't want to read the wall of text and did that, so didn't see the explanation. Thanks for the clarification.

[turtle225]

Originally posted by Scathe:

interesting numbers, thank you very much. I think studying these numbers that some additional tests may be warranted. sallet + assasin robe + lindwurm at 100hp scored a 7.41, with steel brow it scored a 7.83, up .42 from adding the perk. if barbute lines gain as much from the perk, it would make 40dur hat lines harder to justify using.

edit - for example I would bet that 190/220/61% lindwurm 80hp = 6.57 would gain enough from steel brow to get ahead of 40/220/44% lindwurm, which sits at 6.76 at 80hp

Good question.

Adding Brow to the 190/220/61% Lindwurm 80hp line goes from 6.57 -> 6.81.

Technically 6.81 "beats" 6.76 in terms of scoring, but scoring higher doesn't necessarily mean that it is "better" all the time. The test and scores are only a generalization.

I looked at each of the 35 enemies, and compared to the 40/220/44% line you mentioned. The Barbute line won against 14 enemies. The Necro Hat line won against 19 enemes. There were two ties (Fallen Hero w/ Greataxe and Chosen with Heavy Rusty Axe).

The Necro Hat line was winning against most of the big hitters. Barbute line was better against the Cleaver enemies (except Rusty Warblade interestingly). Barbute line was winning against the weak enemies.

But if I look deeper at Chosen with Warblade, Necro Hat line has a 1.5% chance of dying in 3 hits whereas Barbute cannot, but Barbute is twice as likely (~32%) of dying in 4 hits compared to Necro Hat (~16%). Cleaver tests are always a bit iffy though since I have to make educated guesses on when to apply bleeding damage (every two attacks is how I've done that). But in reality with imperfect accuracy and Chosen maybe not attacking twice every turn, and maybe being able to get a Bandage in, it isn't that straightforward.

One issue with the calculator is that it values surviving any type of weapon equally. While technically that's a fair representation, the player usually has a weighted interest toward surviving dangerous attackers. The Barbute line is better against mostly weaker attackers while the Necro Hat line is better against mostly dangerous attackers despite scoring overall lower. There's some skew action here, given that the Necro line was better against more of the test enemies than the Barbute.

Also if Brow is assumed anyway, spending 9 Fatigue to score .05 better is not really a good trade.

So that's a kind of long winded response to a very specific test case, but I think the 40 Hat lines with Brow are ok as a non-Assassin option, since you probably won't have Robes for everyone.

Originally posted by Scathe:

edit2 - maybe I don't need you to run a bunch of steel brow numbers, if you can confirm the theory that 9 lives would add 1.0 to every score, it already does plenty to make the necro hat lines look bad, given 9 lives is not the most popular perk. but there is still some curiosity about the steel brow numbers but only if you really have the spare time.

Technically Nine Lives can score slightly above 1 extra hit since it can save you from a Bleed death (and thus grant an extra hit that otherwise wouldn't have rolled).

Also, while being unlikely, it is possible to survive an extra hit with Nine Lives in the rare case that you get killed mostly/entirely through your head or body, and then after Nine Lives procs you get hit on your fresh armor side and survive. Nine Lives returns 5-10 hp so if one of your armors is healthy it is somewhat reasonable for a Nimble bro to survive a weakish hit there.

Adding Nine Lives to the 190/220/61% Lindwurm line with 80hp brings the score from 6.57 to 7.64, a 1.07 increase.

Nine Lives will nearly always beat SteelBrow in mean survive-ability scores. I'm not sure that I've ever seen Brow offering more than 1 full hit survived in my history of testing. Brow offers injury resistance though.

Originally posted by Scathe:

also I would personally like to know how sallet + southern mail shirt + hyena attach does in these tests, but it is not a big deal but it is another easily accessible line.

edit - this question has implications for the value of the buildup during levels 1-6 when you don't have nimble... during that time basic mail shirt (115 -12) and southern mail shirt (110 -11) are better than leather lamellar. if I fill my inventory with this best raider gear and discard leather lamellar, how much does it matter when nimble joins the equation and makes the formula more complicated than more dur = better?

I'm assuming you mean Plated Noble Mail (105/-11)? Because Southern Mail Shirts would have to either be bought or stolen off of Conscripts, and I don't think people are knifing Conscripts early game for shirts.

If we assume Nasal Helmet (105/-5) for early game since you probably don't have Sallets yet, and then look at Leather Lamellar (95/-10), Plated Nomad Mail (105/-11), and Basic Mail Shirt (115/-12), and give them a +15 attachment, this is what we get. I also added a trio of Padded Kettle (140/-8) since that's easily lootable from Armored Weidergangers.

Nimble Line	80 hp	100 hp	120 hp
105/110/40% Wolf/Hyena	5.62	6.39	7.18
105/120/41% Wolf/Hyena	5.68	6.44	7.21
105/130/42% Wolf/Hyena	5.7	6.43	7.18
140/110/44% Wolf/Hyena	5.61	6.33	7.08
140/120/46% Wolf/Hyena	5.64	6.32	7.04
140/130/47% Wolf/Hyena	5.65	6.32	7.01

The differences between the shirts is basically nonexistent. So should you have dumped your L.Lammelars and have Mail Shirts instead all you are really doing is losing 2 Fatigue for about the same general durability. So in other words not a big deal.

Using Padded Kettle doesn't seem worthwhile however, in general, compared to regular Nasal Helmets in this test.

[Scathe]

thanks again turtle225

I have been at war with 1 southern city state as early as day 28, they often have juicy patrols and caravans and it is only one settlement to have to worry about losing access to. you did answer the question good enough about southern mail shirts though.

edit - for a peasant militia on veteran/veteran, there may be some armies for a city state at war that you have to avoid that early, but it felt more numerous to see something like 5 conscripts and a gunner, or 7 conscripts, and something slightly more dangerous like 8 conscripts and an officer would not be out of the question to face. and of course, you don't declare war until you're face to face with your first 5 conscripts and a gunner opportunity or a similar opportunity. I think the south may even have such thing as a patrol with like 5 conscripts and an assasin, or maybe that patrol had spawned with more and been through battle.

[Scathe]

ok, I guess I'm finally ready to answer turtle225's question from his opening post, "has the attachment rework changed your approach to nimble"

I guess, this data has changed my approach to nimble moreso than the rework itsself. previously I played with collecting wrapped southern helmet (105 -5) and southern mail shirt (110 -11) and prior to the southern mail shirts basic mail shirts and plated nomad mail and upgraded them with sallet and assasin gear. now I will add necro shirt and barbute combo to the list of upgrades. I had not studied data like this previously the way I did with this post. it occurs to me that I may be able to loot necro shirts faster than I can buy barbutes. this injects a new question into my mind. are there any necro shirt + brigand leader helm combos that bring competative survival rates compared to basic mail shirt or southern mail shirt and nasal helm? I guess I am curious about this test with hyena, bone plate, and +10 dur buyable attachments, but as it stands the only attachments I'm likely to put on a necro shirt are bones, lindwurm, or a temporary +10, while the attachments I'm likely to put on southern mail shirt or basic mail shirt are hyena/wolf or +10. I doubt I'll start buying noble mail any time soon, barbutes and sallets seem like much better purchases based on this data.

anyway I'm really happy with the effort you put into answering my previous question, no pressure to put as much effort into this one, huge thanks again

edit - hmm, scanning the wiki, it looks like the only brigand leader line that might be interesting is nasal helm with mail (200 -12), I doubt going higher would be beneficial, but I guess bascinet with mail (210 -13) is something I might loot and consider even though it is probably worse. the wiki also revealed two other interesting barbute substitutes, I doubt I'd buy a closed and padded flat top (180 -11), but knowing how it stands might still be nice or surprisingly good, and closed flat top (170 -10) off a mercenary is a possibility.

edit2 - so basically I'm hoping there will be reason to use my necro shirts without barbute, so this means comparing them with substitute helms to southern mail shirt + nasal helm as I expect those to be highly available. based on your already provided comparable data, it doesn't look like closed and padded flat top + necro shirt + 10dur attach is going to match sallet + southern mail shirt + 10dur, so while the price of those two helms is comparable sallet will always be better buy, not to mention closed and padded flat top would be more temporary and has vision issues. but the other options, if they're free and comparable, could expand the inventory a bit.