Question about apprentice training

[Wayward Device]

So I've been running a very long deadly campaign (just went over 300 days) and one of the things I wanted to do is make a super apprentice. My company is a mix of raiders, sellswords, swordmasters, adventurous nobles, a hedge knight and my current apprentice candidate. He's only had two trainings in about 150 days since joining (damn rng, my morale captain got two swordmaster trainings within about 30 days of joining).

Anyway, I have a couple of questions about apprentice training criteria.

1. So I understand how swordmaster training works (each master can train each candidate once, can train multiple candidates, candidates can be trained by multiple masters). Is this the same for apprentice training from other premium backgrounds or does an apprentice only get one training session from each background?

2. Are there level limits/conditions to apprentice training? My most recent of the two events I got on my current guy was from a lvl 11 sellsword. My apprentice is lvl 10. Can they only be trained by higher level brothers? Will all training stop at 11?

[76561188078797539]

Originally posted by Wayward Device:

If you want to max out apprentice training, add a Retired Soldier to your rotation.

They can also teach.

[Lampros]

I should warn the OP that leveling up Apprentice with teaching events is an unrealistic prospect unless you play a really long game. A Squire can be on par with the premium backgrounds with one or two teaching events, but an Apprentice requires three or four at least. And that could take a long time. For instance, I have an Apprentice who's only had 1 teaching event (Sellsword) in 400 days.

[Lampros]

Originally posted by Sheepify:

Originally posted by Wayward Device:

If you want to max out apprentice training, add a Retired Soldier to your rotation.

They can also teach.

Do Retired Soldiers teach anyone else but Apprentices?

[76561188078797539]

Originally posted by Lampros:

Do Retired Soldiers teach anyone else but Apprentices?

No clue, to be honest.

Right now the possibility of firing up a training event seems so random there's no way to figure out if things just haven't happened yet, or will not ever...

I've been running a group with an apprentice, two sellswords, one retired soldier, one adventurous noble, and a sword master for 60 in-game days now just trying to see the potential event interaction.

So far I had the retired soldier giving +2 melee and +6 resolve to the apprentice, and the swordmaster teaching +2 melee defense to the noble - and I'm pretty sure I was lucky for both to fire up within that time.

I do wish there was some greater consistency to it, or just actual game mechanics that allows you to select a teacher-student pair with potential improvement based on skill difference between the two.

Speaking of somewhat annoying things, wanted to check out random events of other classes (killer on the run, thief, vagabond, etc), but the difficulty progression kind of throws that idea right on the dump. Running a group with cheap backgrounds gets... "naturally" corrected very fast, unless you're set on save-scumming pretty much every battle :)

[Lampros]

Originally posted by Sheepify:

Right now the possibility of firing up a training event seems so random there's no way to figure out if things just haven't happened yet, or will not ever...

I've been running a group with an apprentice, two sellswords, one retired soldier, one adventurous noble, and a sword master for 60 in-game days now just trying to see the potential event interaction.

So far I had the retired soldier giving +2 melee and +6 resolve to the apprentice, and the swordmaster teaching +2 melee defense to the noble - and I'm pretty sure I was lucky for both to fire up within that time.

I do wish there was some greater consistency to it, or just actual game mechanics that allows you to select a teacher-student pair with potential improvement based on skill difference

I was running two Swordmasters purely for teaching, but they were such a drag on the team that I reduced it to just one. I also have a Squire (he's been taught by two separate Swordmasters, but not by the current one I keep), Adventurous Noble (taught by one Swordmaster, now fired), and an Apprentice (taught just once by the Sellsword).

The whole "getting stronger through teaching events" is really RNG-dependent though, as you say. Sometimes I get a dude who gets taught twice in a few weeks (as one now fired Squire did), and then I can also have a guy who's never been taught in 200-plus days.

Originally posted by Sheepify:

Speaking of somewhat annoying things, wanted to check out random events of other classes (killer on the run, thief, vagabond, etc), but the difficulty progression kind of throws that idea right on the dump. Running a group with cheap backgrounds gets... "naturally" corrected very fast, unless you're set on save-scumming pretty much every battle :)

I don't think you lose all that much if you use lesser backgrounds for shield generalist roles; but the performance difference in more specialist roles is tremendous indeed.

Edit: One problem with the teaching events is that now you get swamped by so many irrelevant, frivolous events. I wish those can be cleaned up. For instance, a dice game you win either 5g or lose 5g is totally meaningless and stupid. The same with losing 1 piece of provisions - it simply has no effect in the game. The absolutely worst ones are the join events you keep getting when you already have 12. Is it really that hard to code things to not to trigger them when you have a full party?

[terve886]

Originally posted by Sheepify:

Originally posted by Lampros:

Do Retired Soldiers teach anyone else but Apprentices?

No clue, to be honest.

Right now the possibility of firing up a training event seems so random there's no way to figure out if things just haven't happened yet, or will not ever...

I've been running a group with an apprentice, two sellswords, one retired soldier, one adventurous noble, and a sword master for 60 in-game days now just trying to see the potential event interaction.

So far I had the retired soldier giving +2 melee and +6 resolve to the apprentice, and the swordmaster teaching +2 melee defense to the noble - and I'm pretty sure I was lucky for both to fire up within that time.

I do wish there was some greater consistency to it, or just actual game mechanics that allows you to select a teacher-student pair with potential improvement based on skill difference between the two.

Speaking of somewhat annoying things, wanted to check out random events of other classes (killer on the run, thief, vagabond, etc), but the difficulty progression kind of throws that idea right on the dump. Running a group with cheap backgrounds gets... "naturally" corrected very fast, unless you're set on save-scumming pretty much every battle :)

I really would like to have each backround to have a backround specific skill tree, that could replace the current event based system to some degree:
Bowyers would have ability to learn the master bow crafting recipe along with other bow equipment by spending skill points on specific skill tree that is unique to Bowyer, same applies to tailor crafting the wolf pelt armor (or even metal wolf pelt armor).

"Fightning" backrounds could have the ability to be a mentor for other classes improving the amount of XP they gain or giving them the stat bonuses. Weapon type specific skill trees to backrounds like Lumberjack (axes) and Caravan hand (bludgeon) could also work.
The backrounds could even have unique combat skills, Thief for example could have extra skills or bonuses when using knifes and daggers, or even ability to pickpocket enemy in combat, stealing a weapon from the opponent's bag (for example, stealing the knife from Bandit Marksmen before they switch to it in melee combat).

Many backround specific unique modifiers, like Witch Hunters having the extra resolve against fear and mind control effects and flagellants and thieves having extra chance to hit head could also be included in the background specific skill tree.


Of course the backround specific skilltree should be something that is outside the normal perk tree, so it does not cause balance problems by forcing people to spend points to Tailor's backround skill tree in order to get the metal wolf pelt armor. It could be linear skill tree where the skills unlock when the character reaches X level.

[Lampros]

Originally posted by terve886:

I really would like to have each backround to have a backround specific skill tree, that could replace the current event based system to some degree:
Bowyers would have ability to learn the master bow crafting recipe along with other bow equipment by spending skill points on specific skill tree that is unique to Bowyer, same applies to tailor crafting the wolf pelt armor (or even metal wolf pelt armor).

"Fightning" backrounds could have the ability to be a mentor for other classes improving the amount of XP they gain or giving them the stat bonuses. Weapon type specific skill trees to backrounds like Lumberjack (axes) and Caravan hand (bludgeon) could also work.
The backrounds could even have unique combat skills, Thief for example could have extra skills or bonuses when using knifes and daggers, or even ability to pickpocket enemy in combat, stealing a weapon from the opponent's bag (for example, stealing the knife from Bandit Marksmen before they switch to it in melee combat).

Many backround specific unique modifiers, like Witch Hunters having the extra resolve against fear and mind control effects and flagellants and thieves having extra chance to hit head could also be included in the background specific skill tree.


Of course the backround specific skilltree should be something that is outside the normal perk tree, so it does not cause balance problems by forcing people to spend points to Tailor's backround skill tree in order to get the metal wolf pelt armor. It could be linear skill tree where the skills unlock when the character reaches X level.

I think a Perk system that is over-tailored to match the background may be too resource-intensive.

But something that is not so complex, like having a background already start with a particular Perk, could work and would enrich the game.

[76561188078797539]

Good ideas there, terve.

It's pretty clear the current character development system does need a lot of enriching (or, at least, could strongly benefit from it).

Keep in mind, I'm heavily biased in such discussions since my personal preference would be implementation of mechanics that would allow "equalizing" backgrounds in the long run. "I have a dream..." of ratcatcher mercenary heroes wiping the ground with any hedge knight stupid enough (i.e. all of them >.>) to pick a fight with my ascended group.

That, and a "Circus" group - all the Jesters, all the time, all ranged/melee hybrids with weapons giving bonus for head-hit chance >.>

[MercytheMad]

I'd like to see more backgrounds have unique abilities (like the brawler and killer on the run) that actually make them mechanically different and open up the possibility of unique specialisations.

Not whole new trees necessarily but just little things like boywer have +1 range with bows or rat catchers can move at normal speed in swamps, butchers have a chance to cause bleed with any bladed weapon, minstrels have +10 renown when using rally...that kind of thing.

Stuff that could possibly be worked into a unique speciality.

Edit: Those ideas are pretty cool tho Terve, if the devs decided to go that way.

Edit2: I think the devs have attempted to bring this uniqueness in more through events but the event system still needs to be rebalanced a bit or something to make these class related events a bit more reliable, right now they are a bit too rare to really be accounted for when building a merc group. (Ie hunters food event is to rare to have much effect on supplies, minstrels buff event is too rare to be worth keeping him for that purpose etc)