Highest damage cleaver (Head Chopper?) and axe (Head Splitter vs. Man Splitter)

[black_Leviathan]

Assuming you have the Duelist, Killing Frenzy and Berserk perks, what is the best cleaver and the best axe? I assume the Head Chopper for cleavers and I'm not sure about axes, but I think the Head Splitter. Am I right or wrong?
I came to this conclusion by reading discussions on Reddit and here on Steam (+comparing their stats), but I'm not sure if those discussions aren't based on things which have changed with newer versions of the game.

[thebadman]

Problem with 1h axe crit bonus is that it applies only to raw hp/penetration damage AFTER armor so unless you have a fame that breaks laws of BB physics they will feel underwhelming a lot of the time, duelist or not.

Then you have enemies outright not giving a ♥♥♥♥ about it because steel brow.

[Seeking Solace]

All of those 3 weapons are orc weapons. Why would you use Orc weapons? They consume an insane amount of fatigue and aren't even that good...

[thebadman]

Originally posted by -Solace-:

All of those 3 weapons are orc weapons. Why would you use Orc weapons? They consume an insane amount of fatigue and aren't even that good...

If enemies do not live long enough for you to get fatigued then its just free damage, no?

[Seeking Solace]

Originally posted by thebadman:

Originally posted by -Solace-:

All of those 3 weapons are orc weapons. Why would you use Orc weapons? They consume an insane amount of fatigue and aren't even that good...

If enemies do not live long enough for you to get fatigued then its just free damage, no?

An Orc weapon with the Berserk perk? Yeah, nope. Maybe kind of okay-ish with the Man Splitter, but Head Chopper and Head Splitter? Hell no.

One of the greatest things about 2h axes is that they're fatigue neutral, aside from procing 2 instances of Fearsome and dealing insane damage on every hit. The Man Splitter throws the fatigue neutral part out the window. But yeah, still kinda decent.

1h axes suck in general imo, especially so if you're consuming 18 fatigue per swing with the Head Splitter. Oh, man... Nope. Definitely not worth it.

As for Cleavers, why use 1h cleavers over 2h? If fatigue is not a concern for you, just use a 2h Cleaver. More damage and less fatigue over the Head Chopper.

[Seeking Solace]

Just a follow up comment as to why weapon fatigue costs are so significant:
1. If you're fatigue neutral, you can afford to equip very heavy armor on a BF bro without ever investing into fatigue during level ups, and the bro can still keep going regardless of how long the battle is, with more points invested into HP and Resolve.
2. If you're running Nimble, you're running Dodge. So fatigue = hefty defense penalties.
3. Using heavy fatigue weapons AND the Berserk perk is a very bad combo imo, even in shorter fights. Will run out of juice super quick.

[A5G_Reaper]

Originally posted by -Solace-:

As for Cleavers, why use 1h cleavers over 2h? If fatigue is not a concern for you, just use a 2h Cleaver. More damage and less fatigue over the Head Chopper.

Wrong on the damage part. Dual grip head chopper deals about the same damage as 2h cleavers. That's without duelist, which made them obliterate armored enemies no contest. With mastery, the standard cleave attack of orc cleaver cost only 1 point higher than 2h cleavers. Cleaver users will burn through a lot of fatigue anyway, the small difference is really not much compared to the armor-piercing damage output.

[A5G_Reaper]

To the OP, head chopper/splitter do have the highest damage output for their class (1h cleaver/axe). Just keep in mind that you need a load of fatigue to use them more than 2 turns, but the same applies to duelist builds already. A point in their favor is that they're relatively easy to acquire because there's so many orc champions running around, so you'll likely find a couple every run.

[Seeking Solace]

Originally posted by A5G_Reaper:

Wrong on the damage part. Dual grip head chopper deals about the same damage as 2h cleavers. That's without duelist

(40 + 70) / 2 * 1.25 = 68.75
(65 + 85) / 2 = 75
So yeah, more damage.

Originally posted by A5G_Reaper:

With mastery, the standard cleave attack of orc cleaver cost only 1 point higher than 2h cleavers. Cleaver users will burn through a lot of fatigue anyway, the small difference is really not much compared to the armor-piercing damage output.

13 vs 12. That's 11 accumulated fatigue per turn vs 9 assuming no movement.

The Head Chopper needs a level 8+ perk to compete with a 2h Cleaver with no perk. Yeah, I'm not a fan...

[A5G_Reaper]

The OP specifically mentioned duelist.

[Seeking Solace]

Originally posted by A5G_Reaper:

The OP specifically mentioned duelist.

And you specifically said "that's without duelist". But yeah, more damage overall, but it goes without saying that Duelist 1h weapons perform better against armor.

[Calandro]

Originally posted by -Solace-:

Originally posted by A5G_Reaper:

Wrong on the damage part. Dual grip head chopper deals about the same damage as 2h cleavers. That's without duelist

(40 + 70) / 2 * 1.25 = 68.75
(65 + 85) / 2 = 75
So yeah, more damage.

Originally posted by A5G_Reaper:

With mastery, the standard cleave attack of orc cleaver cost only 1 point higher than 2h cleavers. Cleaver users will burn through a lot of fatigue anyway, the small difference is really not much compared to the armor-piercing damage output.

13 vs 12. That's 11 accumulated fatigue per turn vs 9 assuming no movement.

The Head Chopper needs a level 8+ perk to compete with a 2h Cleaver with no perk. Yeah, I'm not a fan...

Accounting for Duelist and Double Grip on the orc cleaver, and bleed for both weapons, the orc cleaver handily beats the scimitar on nearly all enemies.

I used turtles calculator and got the following results, shown in hits to kill.

Enemy	Two Handed Scimitar	Orc Cleaver with Duelist
Chosen - Heavy (190/230 130hp)	5.6819	4.1045
Chosen - Light (145/140 130hp)	4.1801	3.5454
Conscript (105/110 55hp 41% Nimble)	3.8247	3.0166
Footman - Heavy (215/150 70hp)	3.5789	2.2557
Footman - Light (115/80 70hp)	2.3784	2.0026

[turtle225]

Yeah, Head Chopper with Duelist will easily beat out 2H Cleavers in terms of damage, at the cost of an extra perk (Duelist), and 1 higher Fatigue per swing on the base attack.

You are guaranteed the famed Icy Cave Cleaver though, and 2H Cleavers can use Reach Advantage if you'd like, so there's still cool reasons to use 2H Cleavers.

Famed Head Choppers are not hard to find either though.

[Seeking Solace]

Originally posted by Calandro:

I used turtles calculator and got the following results, shown in hits to kill.

Enemy	Two Handed Scimitar	Orc Cleaver with Duelist
Chosen - Heavy (190/230 130hp)	5.6819	4.1045
Chosen - Light (145/140 130hp)	4.1801	3.5454
Conscript (105/110 55hp 41% Nimble)	3.8247	3.0166
Footman - Heavy (215/150 70hp)	3.5789	2.2557
Footman - Light (115/80 70hp)	2.3784	2.0026

That looks neat. Can you share a link to the calculator?

[Calandro]

Originally posted by -Solace-:

Originally posted by Calandro:

I used turtles calculator and got the following results, shown in hits to kill.

Enemy	Two Handed Scimitar	Orc Cleaver with Duelist
Chosen - Heavy (190/230 130hp)	5.6819	4.1045
Chosen - Light (145/140 130hp)	4.1801	3.5454
Conscript (105/110 55hp 41% Nimble)	3.8247	3.0166
Footman - Heavy (215/150 70hp)	3.5789	2.2557
Footman - Light (115/80 70hp)	2.3784	2.0026

That looks neat. Can you share a link to the calculator?

https://github.com/turtle225/Battle-Brothers-Damage-Calculator

[Seeking Solace]

Tried giving myself the Jester accolade for hastily judging the Chopper without the numbers to back it up, but turns out I can't give myself one. Giving accolades to the more experienced people here instead.

Duelist is honestly much stronger than I thought. Is it wise to invest a lot into fatigue for these kinda builds though? Does it justify less points invested into HP and Resolve? I'm assuming you will need to run the Recover perk too? And is it really wise to use such fatigue heavy weapons on a nimble bro, for example, and forfeit the Dodge bonuses?