Huge groups of Unhold are quite literally impossible to beat

[cifrelettere]

They're just balls of stats with regenration and an unblockable toss ability. Even with a front line pretty much full of Indomitable, it doesn't make a difference because you will never have enough available fatigue to kill the Unhold if you need to keep spamming Indomitable.

Seriously...having 8+ unhold in an encounter is just impossible.

Normally I wouldn't care and I'd just avoid them, but after spending 30 days on the dumb 'Big Game Hunt' mission without a spawn I finally found a 6 Unhold encounter (NEVER TAKE 'BIG GAME HUNT' mission since the rewards suck and the spawns can sometimes NEVER happen). It went pretty much as expected -- all the net spam in the world couldn't save me once they started tossing people around since it makes it impossible to focus them.

Oh well, onto the next group of mercs. Guess I now know that handling huge groups of Unhold is just futile.

[cifrelettere]

Originally posted by Kuattro:

This guy didn't seem to have much trouble with them.

I couldn't care less about non-Ironman players.

[Kuattro]

Originally posted by Sai Kyouji:

That guy is on day 739 and can probabbly quite literally punch a lindwurm to death given enough time.

But yeah, I am not having trouble against big groups of Unhold either, as per my post.

Yes of course, but OP's point was not that it takes an elite team to take on large numbers of Unholds, but that it simply was impossible (he even said that he didn't see what difference good traits and legendary equipment would make).

Taking on any kind of enemy in large numbers can potentially be a death sentence if you don't have veteran brothers with legendary equipment. But no enemy is impossible.

Originally posted by roachymel:

Originally posted by Kuattro:

This guy didn't seem to have much trouble with them.

I couldn't care less about non-Ironman players.

Okay then. If we keep moving the goalposts, then you are certainly right, and Unholds are absolutely impossible in big numbers.

Congratulations.

[catanbros]

Originally posted by turtle225:

Originally posted by roachymel:

unblockable toss ability.

Wrong. Taunt prevents them from using it at all. They'll just try to punch you which any Taunt tank worth his salt can dodge.

Originally posted by roachymel:

Seriously...having 8+ unhold in an encounter is just impossible.

Also wrong. Difficult if you don't know what you are doing, but totally doable with a decent crew and tactics.

Originally posted by catanbros:

the unhold are useless, The hides they provide doesnt justify the work and effort it took to kill em.

The Hides are far from useless as Kill'em'All already pointed out. I will gladly take on roaming Unholds to get my hands on more hides for quite awhile.

You didnt give a good rebuttal on why they're useful compared to store bought legendaries or items found in ruins or tombs. Those hides based on wiki pages make a good cloak or quivers but thats pretty much it. Kill'em all hasnt given a good answer as to why these hides are not useless. This player just said quivers and thats it. I did research and found these hides cannot make better shields than orc metal shields, these hides cant make UBER armour better than davkul armour, these hides cant make better helmets nor better swords or axes. The dog armour looks cool but unless you're chasing bandits, goblins and what not, dogs are secondary to what your brothers are suppose to handle.


To each their own, good luck against the orc and undead invasions.

[Yograin]

Am I the only one who has archers as main unhold killers? I send shield guys in to bind them and shoot them monsters to death. Most I did was 6 group but im still in 150-210 armors and 3 mastercrafts total. Lvl 11 bros.

[Sai Kyouji]

Originally posted by catanbros:

You didnt give a good rebuttal on why they're useful compared to store bought legendaries or items found in ruins or tombs. Those hides based on wiki pages make a good cloak or quivers but thats pretty much it. Kill'em all hasnt given a good answer as to why these hides are not useless. This player just said quivers and thats it. I did research and found these hides cannot make better shields than orc metal shields, these hides cant make UBER armour better than davkul armour, these hides cant make better helmets nor better swords or axes. The dog armour looks cool but unless you're chasing bandits, goblins and what not, dogs are secondary to what your brothers are suppose to handle.

Funny you used orc metal shield as reference. It's like the worst heavy shield, losing to both kite shield and heater shield at that respective field, not mention Schrat shields and Lindwurm shields

But yeah, Unhold hides' best usage is to making quiver and lindwurm cloak, which adds 40 dura at -2 fat and immune to acidic blood. Nothing uber but a good niche.

Anyhow, What's your point in making Unhold's hides undesirable? If nothing else, these hides can be sold for money. And bones can be used to make Lindwurm shield, which is a better kite shield.

Originally posted by Yograin:

Am I the only one who has archers as main unhold killers? I send shield guys in to bind them and shoot them monsters to death. Most I did was 6 group but im still in 150-210 armors and 3 mastercrafts total. Lvl 11 bros.

I guess.
Ranged damage is meh against something with a health pool so big that also regen.

[turtle225]

Originally posted by catanbros:

You didnt give a good rebuttal on why they're useful compared to store bought legendaries or items found in ruins or tombs.

Why are we even comparing a crafting ingredient to legendary items? That's like saying Nets are useless because they aren't store bought legendaries or items found in ruins or tombs.

Originally posted by catanbros:

Kill'em all hasnt given a good answer as to why these hides are not useless. This player just said quivers and thats it.

No he mentioned large quivers (which you can't get anywhere else), heavy wardog armor (which you can't get anywhere else, and armor attachments (some of which you can't get anywhere else).

But sure, useless right?

Originally posted by catanbros:

I did research and found these hides cannot make better shields than orc metal shields, these hides cant make UBER armour better than davkul armour, these hides cant make better helmets nor better swords or axes. The dog armour looks cool but unless you're chasing bandits, goblins and what not, dogs are secondary to what your brothers are suppose to handle.

Wow we are comparing a crafting ingredient to the best armor in the game now? Well shoot I guess everything is useless then.

And last I checked having your dog not croak in one hit is pretty nice.

Originally posted by catanbros:

To each their own, good luck against the orc and undead invasions.

Already cleared both. Turns out large quivers are pretty nice against Greenskins, but nah, they're probably useless.

[catanbros]

Originally posted by turtle225:

Originally posted by catanbros:

You didnt give a good rebuttal on why they're useful compared to store bought legendaries or items found in ruins or tombs.

Why are we even comparing a crafting ingredient to legendary items? That's like saying Nets are useless because they aren't store bought legendaries or items found in ruins or tombs.

Originally posted by catanbros:

Kill'em all hasnt given a good answer as to why these hides are not useless. This player just said quivers and thats it.

No he mentioned large quivers (which you can't get anywhere else), heavy wardog armor (which you can't get anywhere else, and armor attachments (some of which you can't get anywhere else).

But sure, useless right?

Originally posted by catanbros:

I did research and found these hides cannot make better shields than orc metal shields, these hides cant make UBER armour better than davkul armour, these hides cant make better helmets nor better swords or axes. The dog armour looks cool but unless you're chasing bandits, goblins and what not, dogs are secondary to what your brothers are suppose to handle.

Wow we are comparing a crafting ingredient to the best armor in the game now? Well shoot I guess everything is useless then.

And last I checked having your dog not croak in one hit is pretty nice.

Originally posted by catanbros:

To each their own, good luck against the orc and undead invasions.

Already cleared both. Turns out large quivers are pretty nice against Greenskins, but nah, they're probably useless.

Yup, Spend time elsewhere unless you got enough legendaries where you are bored. Nothing beats telling newcomers to try out unholds with shoddy armour and weapons and hope they "enjoy" themselves.


Dogs get beaten down or surrounded by undead and orcs pretty fast. Unlike the non DLC game, The DLC also changed the game mechanics whereby the enemies have traits that add bonuses when they surround your dogs. Its again, a waste unless you like to call cannon fodder a useful tip when numerous players on the forums are already struggling even mid game to pay their men. Spend your money and gear up wisely because depending on how you decided the invasions, youll be underprepared.


Also to avoid replying to both posts, Sai Kyouji is partially correct. The orc metal shield is the worst when compared to other two shields but kite and heaters are a joke. If you expect npcs like noble house soldiers, orcs, or even the lindwurm to take you seriously with those wooden shields, think again. Those shields are crap and depending on orc berserkers or warlords or even the standard orc warrior can cleave and break those shields in two. The orc metal shield whether or not you're in a spearwall formation or just protecting your flanks outlast most "split shield" abilities which would grant you precious time before you get surrounded.


Again, back to the original point i made, The effort it takes to find ( not easy) then dispatch them and HOPE HOPE that you get enough hides, bones, and even a rare heart is just not worth it. Since all three of you think its worth it, based on your responses, you all already have not only high level men but also legendaries so you pretty much are past the end game since you already dealt with the invasions. It makes unhold hides not worth the effort until you pretty much got all your good men and gear.

[Sai Kyouji]

Originally posted by catanbros:

Also to avoid replying to both posts, Sai Kyouji is partially correct. The orc metal shield is the worst when compared to other two shields but kite and heaters are a joke. If you expect npcs like noble house soldiers, orcs, or even the lindwurm to take you seriously with those wooden shields, think again. Those shields are crap and depending on orc berserkers or warlords or even the standard orc warrior can cleave and break those shields in two. The orc metal shield whether or not you're in a spearwall formation or just protecting your flanks outlast most "split shield" abilities which would grant you precious time before you get surrounded.

I dont get you.
1. Orc metal shield is only +15 +15 at 22 fat vs kite shield +15 +25 at 16 fat and heater shield +20 +15 at 14 fat. Fatigue is precious. People have ignored named items over keeping a few points of fatigue . Less fatigue means less chance of getting the enemy out of your face fast enough.

2. I can understand Nobles and Orcs but what on earth does Lindwurm has to do with anything? They dont have Split shield ability. 72 dura is as useful as a cup of ice water in Alaska to Lindwurm. "WE GOT ENOUGH OF THAT. THANKS."

3. Kite shield was never meant for melee combat. It's an anti-archery shield. Simply reaching the enemy frontline would have already fulfilled its purpose, at which time it's better to put them away or let them get destroyed for double grip. Besides, the extra +10 you ignored by getting orc metal shield over kite shield may be a bro's last mistake when archers target him.

4. Not every noble and orc carry an axe. In fact, you can avoid them engaging them with your shield tanks completely on the battlefield (Oh yeah, Lindwurms dont carry axes either). When you can do that, the +20 / +25 is a crap load more valuable than +15 and 72 dura. In fact 72 dura isnt utitlized most of the time when you actually do formation right.

5. This is just my observation but I believe enemies only do split shield if the shield go over certain thresholds. Therefore, having a tougher but less effective shield may means the enemy wont try to break it at all and just go over it instead.

Btw, Spearwalls do pissant damage, is majorly tiring (completely wasteful if enemy just go around it), is ineffective against anything with a shield or stunning jump, can be beaten by 2 tile weapons, and is subjected to major RNG risk. Without mastery, one get through = everyone get through. And the worst thing is when it does succeeds, it prevents your 2 tile backliners from hitting the enemies. Eventually you end up with your frontline tanks all reaching max fatigue limit and the enemies, though injured, still fresh from not being able to attack for a few turns.
Generally, it has no place in anywhere but very early game. The best defense is a good offense.

[catanbros]

Originally posted by Sai Kyouji:

Originally posted by catanbros:

Also to avoid replying to both posts, Sai Kyouji is partially correct. The orc metal shield is the worst when compared to other two shields but kite and heaters are a joke. If you expect npcs like noble house soldiers, orcs, or even the lindwurm to take you seriously with those wooden shields, think again. Those shields are crap and depending on orc berserkers or warlords or even the standard orc warrior can cleave and break those shields in two. The orc metal shield whether or not you're in a spearwall formation or just protecting your flanks outlast most "split shield" abilities which would grant you precious time before you get surrounded.

I dont get you.
1. Orc metal shield is only +15 +15 at 22 fat vs kite shield +15 +25 at 16 fat and heater shield +20 +15 at 14 fat. Fatigue is precious. People have ignored named items over keeping a few points of fatigue . Less fatigue means less chance of getting the enemy out of your face fast enough.

2. I can understand Nobles and Orcs but what on earth does Lindwurm has to do with anything? They dont have Split shield ability. 72 dura is as useful as a cup of ice water in Alaska to Lindwurm. "WE GOT ENOUGH OF THAT. THANKS."

3. Kite shield was never meant for melee combat. It's an anti-archery shield. Simply reaching the enemy frontline would have already fulfilled its purpose, at which time it's better to put them away or let them get destroyed for double grip. Besides, the extra +10 you ignored by getting orc metal shield over kite shield may be a bro's last mistake when archers target him.

4. Not every noble and orc carry an axe. In fact, you can avoid them engaging them with your shield tanks completely on the battlefield (Oh yeah, Lindwurms dont carry axes either). When you can do that, the +20 / +25 is a crap load more valuable than +15 and 72 dura. In fact 72 dura isnt utitlized most of the time when you actually do formation right.

5. This is just my observation but I believe enemies only do split shield if the shield go over certain thresholds. Therefore, having a tougher but less effective shield may means the enemy wont try to break it at all and just go over it instead.

Btw, Spearwalls do pissant damage, is majorly tiring (completely wasteful if enemy just go around it), is ineffective against anything with a shield or stunning jump, can be beaten by 2 tile weapons, and is subjected to major RNG risk. Without mastery, one get through = everyone get through. And the worst thing is when it does succeeds, it prevents your 2 tile backliners from hitting the enemies. Eventually you end up with your frontline tanks all reaching max fatigue limit and the enemies, though injured, still fresh from not being able to attack for a few turns.
Generally, it has no place in anywhere but very early game. The best defense is a good offense.

Okay seriously, The idea of shields and spearwalls is to ALLOW your men to survive while you take time to find open gaps in enemies if not outright pick them off one by one. Do you seriously just bombrush your enemies all the time?

What is the point of your men using shields if they get destroyed?

Also the fact that i mentioned shields against lindwurms isnt because of split shield ability but the fact that your men might survive long enough to get home. This not only is true for these lizards but also against orcs and goblins. Shields will add def but also keep your men alive. Less need to replace shields and also less for your men to get massive injuries in both hands and body. Unless you rely solely on melee and ranged def, They can get hit not only from afar but massive hits from bigger creatures. It helps. Only downside is the fatigue which you need to increase anyways just to wear heavy armour.


Again if big metal shields doesnt factor into your own strategy then fine, everyone has their own playstyle but in terms of effort used for unholds, better leave em out of the hunt until late late game. All three of you have mentioned within your own replies that you guys have not only high level men but also enough legendaries to combat orc and undead invasions. My point again is to make it that newcomers and mid game players avoid em and take out others and gain some legendaries maybe take out an invasion before going after some of these DLC creatures. These hides are pretty much useless if they dont provide major help in midgame against warlords and other bosses as well as 20+ orcs and undead.


Just to stay on topic, the OP nees to avoid unholds until they can scroll thru youtube tactics against these things plus some better gear. The AOE attacks on these things are a pain.

[Sai Kyouji]

Originally posted by catanbros:

What is the point of your men using shields if they get destroyed?

1. To reach the enemy's front line safely

2. Like I mentioned, there are only a few shield destroying units. I position my men to avoid anything that may destroy shields to begin with. There are shieldless tank builds.

3. What is the point of your men using shields if its bonus is NOT enough to save them from getting hit to begin with?

Originally posted by catanbros:

Also the fact that i mentioned shields against lindwurms isnt because of split shield ability but the fact that your men might survive long enough to get home. Less need to replace shields and also less for your men to get massive injuries in both hands and body.

So use +20 def shield instead of +15.
Less need to replace shield? Are you joking? Do you really think lindwurms are gonna hit your shield 32-48 times to break a heater or kite shield in one battle?

Originally posted by catanbros:

My point again is to make it that newcomers and mid game players avoid em and take out others and gain some legendaries maybe take out an invasion before going after some of these DLC creatures. These hides are pretty much useless if they dont provide major help in midgame against warlords and other bosses as well as 20+ orcs and undead.

https://imgur.com/hxQVnLG No need to avoid them. Take them out one at a time.
But you're right. These hides dont provide major help in midgame.
But they certainly help. Besides, there is also bones.

Bone plating - Completely absorbs the first hit of every combat encounter which doesn't ignore armor

Lindwurm Scale Cloak +40 dura - 2 fat

Unhold fur cloak - Reduces any ranged damage to the body by -20%

At the very least, Bone plating especially save all the bro from 1 attack no matter the damage. Irr, only schrat is big on armor piercing at the moment.
Also, Lindwurm hoards can be sold for over 1k. Good money for early-mid games.

Originally posted by catanbros:

Just to stay on topic, the OP nees to avoid unholds until they can scroll thru youtube tactics against these things plus some better gear. The AOE attacks on these things are a pain.

OP doesnt need to avoid anything. OP already found a strategy for big groups of Unhold.

Originally posted by roachymel:

Originally posted by Sai Kyouji:

[Clear throat]
https://imgur.com/hxQVnLG
Nuff said.

Yeah, that's probably the only tactic I could really think of that'd work well.

All the other posters talking about legendaries and Iron Lungs are a bit far up their own arses, since if you seriously think a bit more damage/armor or 4 fatigue/turn on a handful of guys matters vs 8+ Unhold at your front line then you're delusional.

[turtle225]

When did any of us say that you need high level parties with legendary gear to beat Unholds? I was fighting them before day 30 with mid level guys in Raider gear.

I'm not fighting 8 of them but 3 or 4 is totally doable.

You keep saying it isn't worth your time to fight Unholds and seem to think the entire early game should be spent hunting legnedaries which is silly. By the time the first crisis hits you will be lucky if you have more than 3. You do not need legendary gear to win the crisis you just need high tier regular gear. Even 210/210 armor with a decent weapon is good enough.

And fighting Unholds doesn't "waste your time." If you bump into 3 of them wandering around it doesn't cost you any real game time to go kill them before continuing whatever you were doing and now you have some extra loot out of it. If you know what you are doing the battle won't wreck your squad either because I know that is your concern.

If a town has the Unhold status and you want to buy their stuff then completing that contract is well worth your time.

As for shields, the orc metal shield is junk and should only ever be used on Taunt tanks against orcs. Every other brother and every other situation it is crap because the fatigue penalty is insane and the defenses are worse than other shields.

You say that shields help buy you time so that you don't get surrounded but this is actually the opposite. If you have everyone hiding behind shields then you are more likely to get surrounded because you aren't killing anything fast enough.

Shields are extremely important in the early and mid game but once the enemies start outnumbering you then you need to ditch the shield to actually kill things fast enough. By the time this is happening everybody should have Quick Hands (or Reach if that's your thing) anyway so that you can swap between shield and Two Hander as needed.

If you are trying to fight Unholds with 12 shield bros with orc shields then that's your problem right there.

[jfoytek]

Originally posted by Sai Kyouji:

Originally posted by catanbros:

What is the point of your men using shields if they get destroyed?

1. To reach the enemy's front line safely

2. Like I mentioned, there are only a few shield destroying units. I position my men to avoid anything that may destroy shields to begin with. There are shieldless tank builds.

3. What is the point of your men using shields if its bonus is NOT enough to save them from getting hit to begin with?

Originally posted by catanbros:

Also the fact that i mentioned shields against lindwurms isnt because of split shield ability but the fact that your men might survive long enough to get home. Less need to replace shields and also less for your men to get massive injuries in both hands and body.

So use +20 def shield instead of +15.
Less need to replace shield? Are you joking? Do you really think lindwurms are gonna hit your shield 32-48 times to break a heater or kite shield in one battle?

Originally posted by catanbros:

My point again is to make it that newcomers and mid game players avoid em and take out others and gain some legendaries maybe take out an invasion before going after some of these DLC creatures. These hides are pretty much useless if they dont provide major help in midgame against warlords and other bosses as well as 20+ orcs and undead.

https://imgur.com/hxQVnLG No need to avoid them. Take them out one at a time.
But you're right. These hides dont provide major help in midgame.
But they certainly help. Besides, there is also bones.

Bone plating - Completely absorbs the first hit of every combat encounter which doesn't ignore armor

Lindwurm Scale Cloak +40 dura - 2 fat

Unhold fur cloak - Reduces any ranged damage to the body by -20%

At the very least, Bone plating especially save all the bro from 1 attack no matter the damage. Irr, only schrat is big on armor piercing at the moment.
Also, Lindwurm hoards can be sold for over 1k. Good money for early-mid games.

Originally posted by catanbros:

Just to stay on topic, the OP nees to avoid unholds until they can scroll thru youtube tactics against these things plus some better gear. The AOE attacks on these things are a pain.

OP doesnt need to avoid anything. OP already found a strategy for big groups of Unhold.

Originally posted by roachymel:

Yeah, that's probably the only tactic I could really think of that'd work well.

All the other posters talking about legendaries and Iron Lungs are a bit far up their own arses, since if you seriously think a bit more damage/armor or 4 fatigue/turn on a handful of guys matters vs 8+ Unhold at your front line then you're delusional.

Just to chime in on this shield specialization train of thought.... Sure in the perfect world thats all good a great to have the perfect shield for the right mob...

However people have different and yet equally viable play styles for instance
Bags and Belts and Quick Hands are 2 Perks that are a luxury and not frankly needed...

This means In order to have the pefect shield you will need to carry around a Heater variant a Kite variant and a durabiltiy variant. For the right mob thats alot of inventory space if you figure your likely carrying around the right weapon for this and that... plus food and all the new crafting ingredients that fill up your inventory and well....

The point is that sometimes to save on your inventory you make a decision, that since you dont have quick hands and bags and belts that you can't afford the inventory space for metal and heater shields so you stick with Kites because their the most versatile for all situations!

Granted I am coming into this conversation without reading everything... But it seems a bit silly to be making long winded posts about the most viable shield in a specific fight.

[catanbros]

Originally posted by jfoytek:

Originally posted by Sai Kyouji:

1. To reach the enemy's front line safely

2. Like I mentioned, there are only a few shield destroying units. I position my men to avoid anything that may destroy shields to begin with. There are shieldless tank builds.

3. What is the point of your men using shields if its bonus is NOT enough to save them from getting hit to begin with?


So use +20 def shield instead of +15.
Less need to replace shield? Are you joking? Do you really think lindwurms are gonna hit your shield 32-48 times to break a heater or kite shield in one battle?


https://imgur.com/hxQVnLG No need to avoid them. Take them out one at a time.
But you're right. These hides dont provide major help in midgame.
But they certainly help. Besides, there is also bones.

Bone plating - Completely absorbs the first hit of every combat encounter which doesn't ignore armor

Lindwurm Scale Cloak +40 dura - 2 fat

Unhold fur cloak - Reduces any ranged damage to the body by -20%

At the very least, Bone plating especially save all the bro from 1 attack no matter the damage. Irr, only schrat is big on armor piercing at the moment.
Also, Lindwurm hoards can be sold for over 1k. Good money for early-mid games.


OP doesnt need to avoid anything. OP already found a strategy for big groups of Unhold.

Just to chime in on this shield specialization train of thought.... Sure in the perfect world thats all good a great to have the perfect shield for the right mob...

However people have different and yet equally viable play styles for instance
Bags and Belts and Quick Hands are 2 Perks that are a luxury and not frankly needed...

This means In order to have the pefect shield you will need to carry around a Heater variant a Kite variant and a durabiltiy variant. For the right mob thats alot of inventory space if you figure your likely carrying around the right weapon for this and that... plus food and all the new crafting ingredients that fill up your inventory and well....

The point is that sometimes to save on your inventory you make a decision, that since you dont have quick hands and bags and belts that you can't afford the inventory space for metal and heater shields so you stick with Kites because their the most versatile for all situations!

Granted I am coming into this conversation without reading everything... But it seems a bit silly to be making long winded posts about the most viable shield in a specific fight.

Again, Different playstyles and even the OP agreed with one of the other playstyles and it worked.

Just to avoid replying to two posts at the same time. When you are risking the lives of the soldiers who you spent money on training at veteran halls and attachments and etc, fightingt unholds for their ingredents isnt worth much in COMPARISON to other foes. Legendaries are one component but if the battlebrothers are barely equiped with good gear, do something else and get better gear and exp first. The hides dont really help much and im surprised people still think that unhold hides really make much of a difference. Many other enemies not just orcs hit more than once and the attachments arent worth the effort when you can get actual armour or something else that reduces fatigue for more durability. I know the orc metal shields take much alot of fatigue but once you get enough, Those brothers act as a guard so they dont get slaughtered. In any case, look at the time commitment first before going after the big ones. The shields i mentioned not only saved my hide but it held the line like football linemen. It pressured the enemy to take one or two of its own to move around to try to flank my group, needless to say, my guys picked em off easily when their alone. I've seen the screenshots and yes small pitched battles are okay but when you are dealing with 20 - 30+ enemies, its bad.

[suejak]

This is completely wrong. In fact, groups of 8 unholds are trivial for a lategame merc group.

[bouchard_670]

Another "Large group of X monster is impossible!" Nothing special here, move along. Seriously though, there are completely possible. Just need a seasoned band of merc.