am i the only one who thinks daggers are BS

[Peter_Paradox]

i mean, i get the utility of it. But the fact you can so easily negate any and all armor simply by boxing in a model is very stupid. The amount of skill it would take for that is insanely high. Yet is is a very commonplace strategy the ai employs to simply melt units. and likewise the players when trying to get armor

[suejak]

Heavy armour is already very strong in BB, so I think knife punctures are a nice way to keep you honest.

Also getting armour would be even more of an RNG fest without it.

[Peter_Paradox]

i think it works to well is all. having like 500 armor on your head and body is SUPPOSED to be strong. A single dagger attack going through is up to half your models HP if not more. In 1 attack. I could understand if it was more segmented like a quarter at a time. But seeing as any model can get 2 swings with a dagger, its way to powerful.

[turtle225]

Puncture has -15 accuracy. As annoying as it is to get hit, it should rarely ever happen.

If it is hitting you for half hp then your hp stat is too low.

[Whatever100500]

Daggers are not particularly good for players as actual weapons (rather than loot harvest tool) - enemies either don't have enough armor to worry about or so much health that puncture is not attractive. Or are skeletons with 1/2 piercing damage modifier.

Dagger using enemies are annoying.
5% will eventually happen, twice or trice in a row too. Few forged bros can survive more than 2 punctures, so basically any time you end your turn next to 2 or more dagger gobbos you are testing your luck.
There is a reason why you don't want to follow Ambushers too hard - they can be more dangerous in melee than with arrows.

Maybe puncture should have 0% minimum hit chance?

[Peter_Paradox]

nah im talking regular humans. Playing ironman expert lone wolf. And the beginning is always the most intolerable because you are constantly being attacked by clubs and daggers. Clubs are fine enough, i just cant stand one farmer boy with a butter knife somehow negating my armor. These arent noble trained footmen, but whatever its just a pet peave

[turtle225]

Originally posted by Whatever100500:

Dagger using enemies are annoying.
5% will eventually happen, twice or trice in a row too. Few forged bros can survive more than 2 punctures, so basically any time you end your turn next to 2 or more dagger gobbos you are testing your luck.
There is a reason why you don't want to follow Ambushers too hard - they can be more dangerous in melee than with arrows.

Daggers are 15-35, and Goblin Sword/Daggers are at 20-30. If you are fielding 60hp Forge units then that's kind of on you for being at risk of Dagger cheese.

[Whatever100500]

Originally posted by turtle225:

Daggers are 15-35, and Goblin Sword/Daggers are at 20-30. If you are fielding 60hp Forge units then that's kind of on you for being at risk of Dagger cheese.

By your own estimation minimum hp to be *really safe* from 2 punctures is 71. 106 for 3 is pretty much out of reach for forged bros.

I do not want my bros to have ANY chance to die in single turn, because eventually enemies *will* get lucky enough.

[suejak]

Ignoring the Indom cycle bug, what I like about the current BB balance between BF and Nimble is that BF is extremely durable overall but very swingy against its counters, while Nimble is not nearly as durable overall but also way less swingy.

Some people have been suggesting that BF be buffed (!) to fix this balance, but that just seems super misdirected to me. The current tension is beautiful.

[Whatever100500]

Indom cycle is not a bug, it's necessity. I'd agree to trade it away only for quite massive overall nerf to enemies damage output.

[Falka]

Originally posted by Whatever100500:

Indom cycle is not a bug, it's necessity

It's not.

[The Duck Knight]

Originally posted by Falka:

Originally posted by Whatever100500:

Indom cycle is not a bug, it's necessity

It's not.

I agree.

at least on vet you can do without indom at all in most fights without loosing someone.
It's maybe needed on expert for certain bossfights (kraken maybe) and very late game encounters (monolith, etc), but you can do without indom at all without always loosing brothers.

It's just the easiest way to deal with most problems, but it's far from the only solution.

In my current vet/vet campain (trying to use different "new" builds that could always happen to be useless) I got ONE brother with indom at all. Only because he needs it, he is supposed to keep Unholds busy and I don't want him to get tossed around by them, but I never needed to use it against anything besides Unholds.

[Whatever100500]

There is huge difference between no indom cyclers and single indom cycler. My formation in last run also included only 2 and probably could do with just 1, but that one is critical.
Though I did have many shieldwall cyclers.

Funnily enough, Unholds specifically are easy to handle without Indom, as long as you properly lure them into flat terrain.
But that's only due to how their AI works, If Unholds really wanted to $%^ you up, they could simply spam toss unconditionally.

[MagnusGrey]

I have won on expert several times without taking indom once. The only time its mandatory imho is if you are playing lone wolf.

I run my forged bros at around 90-100 hps FYI to avoid dying to multiple puncture and crossbow headshots. (not that you should be getting hit by either that much to begin with if you play your cards right)

[The Duck Knight]

Originally posted by Whatever100500:

There is huge difference between no indom cyclers and single indom cycler. My formation in last run also included only 2 and probably could do with just 1, but that one is critical.
Though I did have many shieldwall cyclers.

Funnily enough, Unholds specifically are easy to handle without Indom, as long as you properly lure them into flat terrain.
But that's only due to how their AI works, If Unholds really wanted to $%^ you up, they could simply spam toss unconditionally.

you are right, indom is not needed for unholds.
In this specific build, I tried to build a brother that could keep one unhold busy in a 1vs1 for as long as possible. He needed that indom to keep the unhold from moving him away and attacking another target.
I tried the same with taunt, but it was far less effective.
In an endurance test he made it for 56 turns of 1vs1 melee against one regular unhold before that melee was interrupted by being tossed away and the unhold moving to a bait-character close by.
The attempt with taunt could only make it for max 15 turns in several tests before the unhold managed to escape that melee and engage the bait.

[Kill'em ALL]

Daggers are fine in their role of a seemingly unremarkable weapon that will still give you a pause due to the off chance of a lucky strike slipping through. That chance is balanced out by the overall low damage and -% accuracy of puncture. I like it how a dagger-wielding gobbo can potentially equal the danger of a 2-hander, otherwise those fights would be outright boring once you stack enough armor to counter poisoned arrows.

As others have stated if your frontliner runs around with just 60HP you're asking to get killed anyway.

I think we have yet to witness the salty peaks of dagger hate. Next DLC is yet to announce the human enemies, but I absolutely expect to see some assassins in the mix. The rage... it will be glorious.

Edit 2:

Originally posted by OverhypeStudios:

The Qatal Dagger is a short curved blade notoriously used by assassins of the southern deserts

Sweet!

Edit:

Originally posted by PeterParadox:

you can so easily negate any and all armor simply by boxing in a model is very stupid. The amount of skill it would take for that is insanely high

In a 1 on 1 duel it'd be difficult indeed. But you are mot even talking a 1 on 1 scenario. And all games are simplifications of reality, especially turn-based games. IRL winning in a 2 against 1 scenario is hardly possible (assuming all people involved know what they are doing and are equipped appropriately), beating any worse odds is a thing only in Hollywood and THAT is the "very stupid" idea. You've got people bashing and grabbing at you from all sides with no possible defense to speak of, you'll just get tackled to the ground and pinned there to be finished off at their leisure. They don't really need any skill to get at you then.

If anything surround boni and penalties should be even more severe than they are now, the only reason they are not is that the game is designed around fun, not realism.