Indomitable vs shield wall which one gives the best defence?

[Thorak]

I was thinking indomitable was a better option for defence, but the 25 fat vs 20 makes it difficult to keep the indom going for a longer time. At the same time, the def boost from shield wall can make some bros very hard to hit. Has anyone made any calculations as to when it is better to use indom and when to use shieldwall?

[UnluckyNoob]

You may consider them roughly equal when shieldwall halves your chance of being hit. With sane mdef and shield that's 95% of the time.

But you should also take into account
1. High penetrating weapons of chosen. Hammer one may 2-shot most of the non-indom bros in the head.
2. Bone plating benefit from mdef and do not from indom.

[turtle225]

Indom makes you more than 2x as durable, so Shieldwall needs to make you more than 2x as dodgy to compete. I don't mean double defense, but rather more than halving enemy hit chances. A 60 MDF bro with a regular Heater and Shield Spec goes to 85 with Shieldwall. Against a Chosen that would be a 20% hit chance to 8% hit chance because of diminishing returns. That's a 2.5x increase in durability. On a Forge bro you would get more from Indom. On a Nimble bro the Shieldwall here would be better.

Having famed shields with +Def favors Shieldwall. For example if we have a shield with 24 base defense that's 30 from Shield Spec and Wall. Applied to the above base of 60 defense again we would go to 90 and drop from 20% hit chance from Chosen to 5% hit chance, or a 4x increase in durability, which would easily beat Indom. If we instead go against a Pike Honor Guard, we would go from a 30% hit chance to 15%, which is only a 2x increase in durability, which is going to lose to Indom.

Morale state factors in as well. Confidence will make your shield and Shieldwall gains higher, while negative morale will make it worse. If morale is down than Indom will usually be the better choice.

Against highly threatening attackers like Chosen you may prefer Indom (on Forge units) regardless of how high your defense is just to prevent getting injured or insta-gibbed by low% hits.

Shieldwall saves more than just 5 Fatigue compared to Indom since avoiding attacks saves Fatigue as well vs. absorbing them.

With Second Wind potions and a famed shield with -Shieldwall cost you can infinite Shieldwall without regard to Fatigue.

There's too many factors and "what ifs" to make a clear distinction on when one is better than the other. As a general idea though the higher your defense the better Shieldwall becomes, whereas Indom is always consistently strong. Indom is relatively more meaningful than normal against high armor ignoring damage attackers like Chosen, and is more impactful for Forge units than Nimble units.

[UnluckyNoob]

Originally posted by turtle225:

Indom makes you more than 2x as durable, so Shieldwall needs to make you more than 2x as dodgy to compete.

Indom makes you more than x2 durable ONLY when you receive armor penetration damage. In the most fights that's not the case until your BF bro is nearly dead. And if bro is nearly dead he'd better run away than continue tanking. If you receive no penetration damage indom is slightly worse than x2 because you'll get less BF bonus on the second hit.

[Whatever100500]

Indom is clear winner when either enemy has so low hit chance that you don't really need shieldwall (< 10% ) or so high that shieldwall fails to halve it (swordmaster champion).

But, super-high hit enemies are also very well countered by overwhelm, while getting natural 5% to be hit without shieldwall on dodge-less forged Indom build is... Hard to say the least, and reachable only against not particularly accurate enemies.

[lc07g]

The answer is simple: the more base defense you have, the better shield wall is (until all enemies has a 5% chance to hit you).

For example: if an enemy can one-shot kill you, and has a 50% chance to hit you. Then you can expect you will survive two rounds. Let's say you wield a shield with +15 defense, which is pretty easy to find. In this case, by using shield wall, the chance is reduced to 35%, meaning that you can expect to survive 2.85 rounds, gainning you 0.85 rounds as your benefit. Indomitable, on the other hand, gives you a straight 50% damage reduction so you can survive two more rounds.

Now let's say you have more base defense and the enemy now have only a 25% chance to hit you. In this case you survive 4 rounds. Gainning +15 defense reduces the chance to 10%, meaning you can survive 10 rounds, which is 6 rounds more as your benefit! Indomitable still provides you two rounds as a benefit.

As you can see, the more base defense you have, or in other words, the less possible for your enemy to hit you, the better shield wall is (certainly don't forget the 5% limit). How to choose between shield wall and indomitable? Just calculate how many rounds you can expect to survive.

[NM9G]

At a basic level, if you prefer it, you can think of it like this:

• Shieldwall for hits you can afford to take
  
• Indomitable for hits you can’t afford to take many of

[A5G_Reaper]

Usually by the time I have the choice it's a matter of reliability. Indomitable if your entire plan is potentially wrecked if a hit goes through, shieldwall if the guy can afford to take a few lucky blows.

For the most things, I usually just shieldwall. Skeletons, zombies, most humans, etc drops to 5% hit chance. Whereas indomitable is reserved for the likes of unhold, orc warriors, berserker with chain, or barbarians if they're dogpiling the guy.

[Tephros83]

Originally posted by turtle225:

Indom makes you more than 2x as durable, so Shieldwall needs to make you more than 2x as dodgy to compete. I don't mean double defense, but rather more than halving enemy hit chances. A 60 MDF bro with a regular Heater and Shield Spec goes to 85 with Shieldwall. Against a Chosen that would be a 20% hit chance to 8% hit chance because of diminishing returns. That's a 2.5x increase in durability. On a Forge bro you would get more from Indom. On a Nimble bro the Shieldwall here would be better.

Having famed shields with +Def favors Shieldwall. For example if we have a shield with 24 base defense that's 30 from Shield Spec and Wall. Applied to the above base of 60 defense again we would go to 90 and drop from 20% hit chance from Chosen to 5% hit chance, or a 4x increase in durability, which would easily beat Indom. If we instead go against a Pike Honor Guard, we would go from a 30% hit chance to 15%, which is only a 2x increase in durability, which is going to lose to Indom.

Morale state factors in as well. Confidence will make your shield and Shieldwall gains higher, while negative morale will make it worse. If morale is down than Indom will usually be the better choice.

Against highly threatening attackers like Chosen you may prefer Indom (on Forge units) regardless of how high your defense is just to prevent getting injured or insta-gibbed by low% hits.

Shieldwall saves more than just 5 Fatigue compared to Indom since avoiding attacks saves Fatigue as well vs. absorbing them.

With Second Wind potions and a famed shield with -Shieldwall cost you can infinite Shieldwall without regard to Fatigue.

There's too many factors and "what ifs" to make a clear distinction on when one is better than the other. As a general idea though the higher your defense the better Shieldwall becomes, whereas Indom is always consistently strong. Indom is relatively more meaningful than normal against high armor ignoring damage attackers like Chosen, and is more impactful for Forge units than Nimble units.

The point about fatigue is one I hadn't thought of. What is the difference again for fatigue from dodged vs hit?

I think it's also more impactful when indom helps you avoid injuries, which is actually a bigger factor for nimble once the armor is gone. Getting hit at half power twice as often is better if you're avoiding an injury or morale check with indom. Indom is a great tool to have, and such a bro would choose which to use based on the situation. For a tank, it's a good pick.

Shields can also be destroyed unless you have the legendary one. Indom is a good backup for that. Don't recall if it reduces shield damage

[A5G_Reaper]

Dodging an attack cost 2 fat and getting hit cost 5

[Thorak]

Thanks for the answer. In this particular case I was considering if indomitable was worth it for my manhunter indebted martyrs or not. Something that has not been included in your analysis above is the fact that indomitable also costs a feat. This is not that impactful for a normal tank, but for a manhunter indebted this is the final dealbreaker which makes indomitable a bad feat compared to other options like nine lives, gifted, dodge, backstabber, shield expert, weapon mastery.

For nimble tanks I am also doubtful if it is worth it. For BF mega tanks though I still think indomitable beats the shield walling. For nimble I would likely use dodge, overwhelm, relentless and dagger mastery instead.