2-Tile Reach Weapons Comparison | Calculations

[turtle225]

EDIT (1/16/21): Found a mistake in the calculator that was inflating the mean hits to kill (was counting 30 enemies but dividing by 26 for the mean score). I've updated the numbers in the chart. Conclusions remain the same, as the error was inflating everything equally, but the numbers between weapons did tighten up slightly. Comments may reference outdated numbers.

Introduction

It feels kind of safe to say we've entered a QH Reach weapon meta? Not to say that that wasn't popular before, but since the Indom/Adrenaline nerfs it seems to have gained even more popularity. Regardless, I wanted to compare the damage potential of the various 2-tile Reach weapons. In WotN, Billhook was one of the best weapons in the game, but that got nerfed too, (was 60-90, 150% armor -> now 55-85, 140% armor). Polehammer also got buffed (175% armor -> 185% armor). Let's see how these weapons stack up in the calculator.

Conclusions at the bottom if you don't care about the testing process.

Methodology

• The calculator will test each weapon against 30 different enemies ranging from Goblins to Warlords. All factions are represented, except for Beasts.
  
• Score shown will be the average mean hits to kill an enemy from the test group. The lower the score, the better (faster you kill on average).
  
• The calculator assumes 100% accuracy. This will disfavor the reach weapons with accuracy modifiers slightly.
  
• Our attacker does not have any offensive perks or traits, aside from Weapon Mastery (which is only relevant for Polehammer with Destory Armor).
  
• Hidden/unique weapon effects are in play, such as the Warscythe/Swordlances true damage values instead of their lying tooltip cards, and the Polehammer's minimum 10 hp damage.
  
• Enemies have their respective defensive perks in play, and usually wear their highest armor loadout. Some enemies are represented twice (ie lightest Chosen and heaviest Chosen, same with Warriors).
  
• Ancient Dead piercing resistance is not factored in these tests, as I didn't want to unfavorably skew the results against piercing weapons which the player would choose not to bring against them anyway (unless they had no alternative).
  
• Secondary skills such as Destroy armor or AoE attacks have their own representation. Spearwall is not being shown here.

Disclaimers

• The calculator cannot truly represent the dynamic nature of the game. The game isn't a 1v1 vacuum sandbox calculator with perfect accuracy. View results while understanding it is only a simulation.
  
• Perfect hit chance disfavors +accuracy weapons. Pikes, Spetum, and Banner normally have +10% hit, Billhook, and single target Warscythe/Swordlance have +5% hit. AoE skills, Longaxe, Polehammer, and Polemace have no +hit. Having bonus accuracy would increase kill rates slightly on those weapons, so keep that in mind when evaluating.
  
• Enemies tend to be using their best armor sets in these tests, but often in game they deploy with worse (ie Berserkers often spawn naked, but in the test they are using their best 120/110 armor set). This representation favors weapons with higher armor damage.
  
• Heavy armor enemies like Warriors and especially the Warlord test highly favor the weapons with good armor damage. As an example, you wouldn't 1v1 a Warlord with a Spetum or Pike in game. The poor performance against such enemies skews the test results against weapons with worse armor damage.
  
• Bulky unarmored beasts like tier 3 Nachos, Unholds, and Schrats are not represented. These would be cases where the poor armor damage weapons would do better.

Results

Recall that the score presented is the mean number of hits to kill an enemy on average from the 30 enemy test group. The lower the score, the better.

An * on the weapon name denotes weapons eligible for Polearm Mastery (5AP) attacks. Otherwise, weapons require 6AP. Weapons are listed from quickest to slowest kill rates in this test.

The Polehammer (DA1) representation is assuming you open with Destroy Armor on your first attack (Mastery assumed), and then switch to normal attacks after.

Billhook (Pre-Nerf) I added for fun. This represents the Billhook before the BD nerf.

Weapon	Avg. Mean to kill
Polehammer (DA1)	4.12
Polehammer	4.21
Billhook (Pre-Nerf)*	4.56
Longaxe	4.8
Billhook*	5.07
PoleMace	5.17
Bladed Pike*	5.58
Warscythe Single*	5.98
Pike*	6
Warscythe AoE*	6.19
Swordlance Single*	6.2
Swordlance AoE*	6.42
Spetum	6.7
Banner*	6.86

Conclusions

• Polehammer wins in this test. However, keep in mind the test biases toward armor damage. Polehammer is the worst weapon against large flesh bags and enemies with already stripped armor, but it is the best damage choice against anything armored.
  
• Opening with Destroy Armor (mastery assumed) technically wins the test, but upon a deeper look at the numbers Destroy Armor will hurt your kill efficiency against many enemies as it fixes HP Damage to 10. You should only use Destroy Armor against enemies with 150+ body armor. If you have Killing Frenzy or Executioner primed, I would push that back further to even more armor. If using CS you should be less inclined to use Destroy Armor as well.
  
• Longaxe has the best HP damage range out of the reach weapons and it still scores quite well against the armor bias of the test. Longaxe is the best damage option against big flesh targets like Unholds and Nachos, or enemies with stripped armor.
  
• Even with the nerf, Billhook is still far ahead of the other literal Polearms, making it the best single target damage you can get of the 5AP choices. It also gets +5% accuracy which Polehammer/Longaxe do not have and the test does not represent. While the damage may be lower than Polehammer/Longaxe, 5AP is really strong compared to 6AP and can be well worth the lower damage (but it does require a perk).
  
• Polemace is noticeably worse than the other 6AP options, so unless you want it for the Stun or because you happen to have Mace Mastery already then you would be better off going for a Polehammer or Longaxe.
  
• Pikes are going to be worse damage-wise than the above options, but they have +10% hit chance which is great for bros with accuracy concerns.
  
• Warscythe/Swordlance single target is not impressive, and the AoE damage looks bad in the test, but they will more than make up for it if hitting 2-3 enemies a turn. They will easily deal much higher total damage to the enemy team compared to the other options if you are consistently attacking 2-3 enemies per turn. However, it can be a good idea to bag a Billhook or 6AP reach weapon for better single target damage for when an AoE target is not available, if you don't mind devoting a bag slot for that.
  
• As an AoE example, if we oversimplify for a bit and assume perfect conditions, we can say that the Warscythe will defeat 3 enemies in 6.19 swings while the Billhook is only defeating 1 enemy in 5.07 swings
  
• Warscythe will tend to out-damage Swordlance, but it can run into durability problems in large battles, and weighs more. Keep that in mind when choosing between the two.
  
• Spetum damage is poor, but you wouldn't use it as your main reach weapon anyway. If you are using a Spetum it is because you want a higher damage Spearwall.
  
• Banner is expectedly weak. Using QH shenanigans with a Billhook or AoE weapon can help your Bannerman deal more damage.

These tests don't exactly tell us anything we weren't already aware of, but I found it interesting to run the numbers. Polehammers may be a bit underrated by the community, as I rarely see people talking about or using them. The 6AP is likely the reason though, as 5AP Billhook is just a lot more versatile, and the AoE weapons are great. There's a reason why Polearm Mastery is one of the best perks in the game.

Thanks for reading. Which Polearms do you like using?

[Tlewnipla]

Thanks for this analysis! This ranking is what my gut feeling about the different weapons was like. I would have thought that polemaces would be higher up, though.


I like to mix the weapon loadout of my company. I always have at least one mace / polemace, one axe / longaxe and one hammer / pole hammer. The rest depends on the weapons I have in my wagon when one of my brothers turns lvl11. That is when I typically spec a weapon mastery.

I love to use Greatswords, too, so one of these is often present as well. They don't get a reach weapon but a one handed sword and a net for flexibility.

Backline - as many billhooks as I can find, normally paired with a sword and quick hands for double attacks when pressured...

[Antifringe]

Thanks for the analysis Turtle.

I've been warming up to the polearm QH style. I'm more of a throwing weapons guy, but part of that is because I mostly play short 1-crisis games. You can get a full set of javelins very quickly, but a full set of military-tier polearms is harder to get.

My games see lots of billhooks because they are the "rarely optimal, never wrong" option. If you can only afford one polearm, the billhook is the one to get.

Longaxes are my second favorite. Like you say, they're good against fleshbags and bring unique utility against Schrats. Any fool can crack shields with a longaxe, so you can hand it over to your new recruit or your archer and they actually do something useful against the walking trees.

I try to grab at least one polehammer before accepting any greenskin contracts. If you run into an orc warrior with a mid-level group and you don't have some kind of dedicated armor smashing, you're kind of screwed. I prefer the polehammer as the first anti-armor purchase because it's easier to move the polearm guy to where he's needed than to move a frontlinee with a non-reach hammer. The frontliner might get tangled up with Orc Young or something, whereas the polearm can always easily redeploy to chase the warriors.

I end up using a lot of polemaces in my games, but that's mostly because of my love for low level play. You find lots of those things naturally when fighting nomads, and hey, they're better than pitchforks. But like you say, their damage doesn't keep up. The two-tile stun attack is nice, but is never as good as I think it's going to be. I prefer whips if I need some kind of control-at-a-distance functionality.

I have never had a good experience with the spetum. I don't like spears in general, so they're probably just not my thing.

[Heron]

Great stuff.

Originally posted by turtle225:

It feels kind of safe to say we've entered a QH Reach weapon meta?

Indeed. =D

[Lampros]

Originally posted by Heron:

Great stuff.

Originally posted by turtle225:

It feels kind of safe to say we've entered a QH Reach weapon meta?

Indeed. =D

And the devs will nerf reach weapons, and we will ultimately have nothing left but our fists.

[Heron]

Originally posted by Lampros:

Originally posted by Heron:

Great stuff.



Indeed. =D

And the devs will nerf reach weapons, and we will ultimately have nothing left but our fists.

https://youtu.be/bmfudW7rbG0

[gazomierz]

2h/2tile qh 4 life.

[Tephros83]

Originally posted by Antifringe:

Thanks for the analysis Turtle.

I've been warming up to the polearm QH style. I'm more of a throwing weapons guy, but part of that is because I mostly play short 1-crisis games. You can get a full set of javelins very quickly, but a full set of military-tier polearms is harder to get.

Not much harder. All you have to do is choose a noble house enemy, raid their caravans, hire a brigand follower, and attack a few of their supply caravans. The billmen carry pikes, billhooks, and polehammers. Supply caravans often have only like 6 defenders, so 12 men in raider gear is enough. Can do that before the 1st crisis no problem.

[Hairy Coo]

Great as always, Turtle. I love QH 2h/2tile meta. It doest feel like exploit unlike indom cycle felt to me. I’ve actually noticed polehammers been a very solid weapon, I use them often enough, definitely on 2h hammer bros.

[Crash [LV]]

I still use those sticks with metal on the ends. Sure, damage is smaller, but avoiding that 15% of friendly fire is real nice, if you have many such bros.

*edit*
It's called tipstaff.

[Nerdgasm]

Originally posted by turtle225:

It feels kind of safe to say we've entered a QH Reach weapon meta?

yes

[suejak]

I quietly reposted this thread to the Discord :) Great thread once again!

I am enjoying the idea of this polehammer / longaxe dominance.

[Coldoge]

Curious to know where the goblin jagged pike falls in the calculations. It has become my go to two tile weapon on duelist due to only needing 5 AP without any mastery. With berserk and quick hands it enables 3 attacks per turn with one of those attacks two tiles away. Jagged Pike damage is weak but damage is zero for a 6 AP pole weapon in the same situation. One could use a perk point on polearm mastery for the same efficiency. The jagged pike provides the ability without using a perk point. Very nice work btw.

[Heron]

Originally posted by Col-Doge:

Curious to know where the goblin jagged pike falls in the calculations. It has become my go to two tile weapon on duelist due to only needing 5 AP without any mastery. With berserk and quick hands it enables 3 attacks per turn with one of those attacks two tiles away. Jagged Pike damage is weak but damage is zero for a 6 AP pole weapon in the same situation. One could use a perk point on polearm mastery for the same efficiency. The jagged pike provides the ability without using a perk point. Very nice work btw.

Could also run a fencing sword for 2 tile reach attacks, that's what I like to do. :)

[MoKuS]

Interesting stuffs. Thanks for putting time and effort.

[turtle225]

Originally posted by Col-Doge:

Curious to know where the goblin jagged pike falls in the calculations. It has become my go to two tile weapon on duelist due to only needing 5 AP without any mastery. With berserk and quick hands it enables 3 attacks per turn with one of those attacks two tiles away. Jagged Pike damage is weak but damage is zero for a 6 AP pole weapon in the same situation. One could use a perk point on polearm mastery for the same efficiency. The jagged pike provides the ability without using a perk point. Very nice work btw.

In terms of raw damage it is scoring 8.94 in the test. That might seem surprisingly worse than the Banner given that it is just 10% less effective against armor, but it also has +5% headshot chance compared to the Banner which actually works against it.

If I factor the 5 point bleeds that it can inflict it scores at 8.41, but the calculator can only approximate bleeds, and it is coded for Cleavers instead. As in, I have it tick bleeds after every two swings which in the case of Goblin Pikes it should really be ticking after every swing since you can only attack once per turn. But even in that case, you wouldn't normally be in a situation where you are waiting for Goblin Pike bleeds to tick.

Basically, Goblin Pike is going to be a bit weaker than the Banner, even with help from bleeds. However if you are primarily using it against weakened enemies with little or no armor then it will outpace the banner with the bleed value.

Regardless, Goblin Pike is expectedly weaker than the rest, but it does have its own value in essentially coming with Polearm mastery for free (sorta), like you said. I use them too sometimes.