Battle forged was a nice addition for indomitable but on its own is a joke.2h are terrible now.Shame.

[romanzombiekiller]

Average poor man's midgame 250/250 will give only 25% damage reduction for the first received hit.Lets take an examle of unremarkable brigand raider with double grip handaxe and max rolled damage.45 damage x 1.25 double grip x 1.2 effectiveness vs armor =67.5=67 as game seems to round down..Since 25% dr 67x0.75=50.25=50.
On your next turn you missed as it usually happens in such situations.He max rolled again and since now your dr is (200+250)x0.05=22.5=22%.Now your body armor is hit for 67x0.78=52.
His second attack during same turn hit for (148+250)x0.05x0.67=13.3=13.Armor is damaged for 54 more damage.
After 3 hits body armor lost 156 points of durability and suddenly turned into 94 leather lamellar.
Amount of damage which battle forged perk neutralised is 17+15+13=45.This is even less then 1 strike.And we are talking about average brigand raider with 1h axe who has 70 matk skill.Mercenaries with 2h. raiders with military picks. champions. orcs. billmen and etc.
2h characters have been turned into glass cannons.... even worse-sand cannons.
Thoughts?

[Whatever100500]

Forged does have higher survivability at high end, even without Indom active in 300+ gear. Or basic 300/300 against average weapons that don't sport high armor ignore or armor damage values.
Axes are mildly anti-armor, so not best example to show armor superiority.

I do consider using Battleforged in early company a very bad idea though (unless particular recruit is too good fit for forged and suffering in short term is worth it). You don't yet have good enough armors to make it tick.

On top tier armors, Battleforged provides 200-250 extra effective armor, which is more than nimble provides in effective hp on almost any recruit (easy to check with turtle's calculator). That's in addition to simply having much more effective armor+hp than a nimble bro.

[Hairy Coo]

I barely ever used indom outside of tanks before and was just fine with BF. BF still appreciates high health, i try to get it as close to 100 as i can with 80 beaing minimum. Also a bro that can pickup BF should have mdef high enough notnto get hit 3 times in a row woth higher AID weapons.

So no, 2h are very good, both nimble and bf. BF doesnt mean leaving hp or mdef low. Indom cycle was a cheesy tactic anyway.

[laveley]

Originally posted by romanzombiekiller:

Thoughts?

2H frontliners arent viable anymore long term. I'm surprised you had to make the math to realize it.

Build traditional tanks or tanks with damage spike potential for your frontline and rely on your backline to do damage.

[Cat®]

You are wrong. Battle Forged remains the superior defensive option bar none, two-handers continue to perform huge amounts of damage with relative safety, and overall outclass other damage options in versatility and impact. Incidentally that math you use highlights that your armour can take 5 hits from a t2 weapon that max rolls every time and still protect the wearer. But by all means, play a full nimble if you think battle forged is such a bad pick in your mind. You will only punish yourself though.

I do wonder why you are so insistent on having these hot takes about how everything good is bad. Who are you trying to convince? If you want to convince yourself surely you don't need to convince the rest of the world too? Because you'll get the same answer every time as you have from the day of release. Don't you already have the indom\adrenaline revert mod that solves all of your problems?

[romanzombiekiller]

Originally posted by laveley:

Originally posted by romanzombiekiller:

Thoughts?

2H frontliners arent viable anymore long term. I'm surprised you had to make the math to realize it.

Build traditional tanks or tanks with damage spike potential for your frontline and rely on your backline to do damage.

Oh I understood it very well without math but rather than simply calling something bull$$$t I decide to show why it is.

[romanzombiekiller]

Originally posted by Cat®:

You are wrong. Battle Forged remains the superior defensive option bar none, two-handers continue to perform huge amounts of damage with relative safety, and overall outclass other damage options in versatility and impact. Incidentally that math you use highlights that your armour can take 5 hits from a t2 weapon that max rolls every time and still protect the wearer. But by all means, play a full nimble if you think battle forged is such a bad pick in your mind. You will only punish yourself though.
Don't you already have the indom\adrenaline revert mod that solves all of your problems?

This mod is a short term solution because thier is no guarantee it will be updated after devs release new dlc and nerf things even more.
Incidentally my math shows that high tier perk didn't even neutralise amount of damage of 1 strike during 3 strikes of t2 weapon from raider.

[Cat®]

Originally posted by romanzombiekiller:

Originally posted by Cat®:

You are wrong. Battle Forged remains the superior defensive option bar none, two-handers continue to perform huge amounts of damage with relative safety, and overall outclass other damage options in versatility and impact. Incidentally that math you use highlights that your armour can take 5 hits from a t2 weapon that max rolls every time and still protect the wearer. But by all means, play a full nimble if you think battle forged is such a bad pick in your mind. You will only punish yourself though.
Don't you already have the indom\adrenaline revert mod that solves all of your problems?

This mod is a short term solution because thier is no guarantee it will be updated after devs release new dlc and nerf things even more.
Incidentally my math shows that high tier perk didn't even neutralise amount of damage of 1 strike during 3 strikes of t2 weapon from raider.

One day you'll have to accept that it's not the entire world that's getting lucky.

[romanzombiekiller]

Originally posted by Cat®:

Originally posted by romanzombiekiller:

This mod is a short term solution because thier is no guarantee it will be updated after devs release new dlc and nerf things even more.
Incidentally my math shows that high tier perk didn't even neutralise amount of damage of 1 strike during 3 strikes of t2 weapon from raider.

One day you'll have to accept that it's not the entire world that's getting lucky.

I suppose expecting adequte comments from you is something foolish.

[turtle225]

If I take an 80HP, 300/300 bro and throw him in the calculator against the 35 enemy test group, then Forge increases his survive-ability by 20%.

If I do the same test but assume permanent Indom, Forge increases his survive-ability by 22%.

So no, Indom was never a requirement for Forge value. It is only slightly more relevant with Indom.

2Handers were never required to use Forge or Indom to be good.

Some people even run heavy armor units without Forge because it isn't a requirement for heavy armor to be good, unlike Nimble which is a must on light units. If you don't think the return is good enough then use your perk elsewhere.

There are only a handful of enemies that hard counter Forge, and of them only Chosen appear in mass enough to make people cry about it.

[romanzombiekiller]

Originally posted by turtle225:

If I take an 80HP, 300/300 bro and throw him in the calculator against the 35 enemy test group, then Forge increases his survive-ability by 20%.

If I do the same test but assume permanent Indom, Forge increases his survive-ability by 22%.

So no, Indom was never a requirement for Forge value. It is only slightly more relevant with Indom.

2Handers were never required to use Forge or Indom to be good.

Some people even run heavy armor units without Forge because it isn't a requirement for heavy armor to be good, unlike Nimble which is a must on light units. If you don't think the return is good enough then use your perk elsewhere.

There are only a handful of enemies that hard counter Forge, and of them only Chosen appear in mass enough to make people cry about it.

I have no idea what kind of test you mentioned but I have serious doubts in it since it says that permanent dmage reduction of 50% increases his survive-ability by only 2% more than just bforged.I don't need to tell YOU how effective indom is since it reduces all damage including armor damage armor penetration and direct hp damage and so it only makes sense to reduce it even more with bforged.Assuming test subject has decent mdef 1 round swing in 2 turns is brilliant tactic and if he gets hit while under indom+bforged damage will be laughable.An example of what will happen just under battle forged is the first message.

[McGrits]

My BF 2H cleaver bro kills all the things. My anecdotal data is just as valid as your fantasy raider scenario.

Seriously, calling 2-handers glass cannons in the absence of the whole picture is insufficient in examining any comparisons between builds. The breakdown of the 250250 vs raider does not take into account hits across different body parts. It doesn't take in account of level up point or perk costs. It doesn't consider any factor on availability of the bro to be nimble or BF.

Plus, a dead enemy can't give you any damage to worry about.

[turtle225]

Reading comprehension is a thing. Give it a try.

[romanzombiekiller]

Originally posted by McGrits:

My BF 2H cleaver bro kills all the things. My anecdotal data is just as valid as your fantasy raider scenario.

Seriously, calling 2-handers glass cannons in the absence of the whole picture is insufficient in examining any comparisons between builds. The breakdown of the 250250 vs raider does not take into account hits across different body parts. It doesn't take in account of level up point or perk costs. It doesn't consider any factor on availability of the bro to be nimble or BF.

Plus, a dead enemy can't give you any damage to worry about.

So you are saying that your success is based on killing enemies faster than they can hurt you.This IS a definition of glass cannon because eventually your BF cleaver will miss 2 strikes in a row without anyone nearby to rotate him out of quite predictable demise.

[Uncle Khai]

22%? XD! Before nerf! Clear monolithic total with one guy! After nerf I doubt he can do it again

[romanzombiekiller]

Originally posted by turtle225:

Reading comprehension is a thing. Give it a try.

Try refraining from giving abstract results from some questionable tool as irrefutable proof.