BF or nimble for 2handers as of latest patch?

[gungadin22000]

I've not played BB in a few patches, but I seem to recall that nimble was a perfectly viable option for 2handed frontliners. However, in my current beastslayer game, I ended up with exclusively nimble light armoured 2handers in my frontline.

And they keep dying on me, far more than I seem to remember them doing in the old days.

Has there been a change in the way nimble and BF works, or am I simply remembering nimble 2handers as being better than they were?

[Muscarine]

Originally posted by gungadin22000:

And they keep dying on me, far more than I seem to remember them doing in the old days.

If you're going Nimble your deciding factor can't just be damage mitigation

Basically the latest balance changes make it pretty clear it's an initiative perk.
So if you're going Nimble but don't plan to capitalize on speed, might as well have picked BF in the first place.

I like to think of both perks as dodge tanking vs body tanking. Of course it's not exactly that, but it means that's how you should build around.

Late game i'd say BF is still the superior choice, because 5%.

[Malarky Enthusiast]

Nimble is better against different enemies. Nimble trades well with unholds, barbarians, lindwurms, pikes, xbows etc, BF trades better against all lighter attacks with low pierce damage.

[Hykal]

Nimble: 1v1 that Unhold

Forge: 1v10 those Legionaires.

[McGrits]

nimble vs BF really depends on the 2h weapon and fatigue use.

With a polearm, nimble is great since the weapon is a low fatigue weapon. 2H axe bro can go either way, with nimble needing a really good low fatigue great axe to go with the long axe. A 2H mace bro can also go either way. The 2H cleaver is heavy on the fatigue so I would say a BF is better. Same with the 2H sword and its heavy fatigue.

I agree with above that HP is needed for BF builds. Since I give all my guys colossus, I want a total HP of 75+ for BF at level 11 with some veteran points to get to 80+. For nimble 120+ hp if you want to trade hits with anything.

[jonitomato]

Originally posted by McGrits:

nimble vs BF really depends on the 2h weapon and fatigue use.

With a polearm, nimble is great since the weapon is a low fatigue weapon. 2H axe bro can go either way, with nimble needing a really good low fatigue great axe to go with the long axe. A 2H mace bro can also go either way. The 2H cleaver is heavy on the fatigue so I would say a BF is better. Same with the 2H sword and its heavy fatigue.

I agree with above that HP is needed for BF builds. Since I give all my guys colossus, I want a total HP of 75+ for BF at level 11 with some veteran points to get to 80+. For nimble 120+ hp if you want to trade hits with anything.

Why is BF better on bros who spam high fatique attacks? I mean, you won't have a lot of fatigue if your bro is in a heavy armor, so to me it seems wearing low fatique armor = nimble is the way to go and spam AOE/high fatique attacks, or am I wrong?

[Cat®]

@jonitomato
I have pondered this as well. It seems like a case of Grits meaning that in reverse, because I like to think I know what I am doing and I am not following. But maybe I am missing something that it turns out I am too dense to grasp. But it seems fairly intuitive that fatigue heavy weapons benefit from lighter armour because then more fatigue goes to abilities rather than defence. But I guess it's possible we can assume only a character with good potential for high fatigue, and the levels to build that, lead to using a cleaver in the first place?

[McGrits]

I guess i should explain. For nimble you want to spend points into hp, matk and mdef. Since you will only give yourself a little fatigue point here and there, low fatigue weapons like a polearm are great for this.

A battleforged bro will get fat, matk and mdef. With fatigue based defense, not only does brawny give some relief, late game named armors will give a brawny-battleforged bro much more bonus to health-armor-fatigue than a named armor piece for a nimble bro. You can gain upwards of 15 fatigue points back (even after brawny reduction) easily for a named hat and named armor for an equivalent armor amount. This extra fatigue allows for the higher fatigue usage for 2h cleaver bros and makes recover that much more effective

[Cat®]

Very fair.

[Estieukua]

Discussions like this always carry on with the implicit underlying assumption that 2-handers must be "frontline" troops and must advance straight into melee engagement with the enemy frontline (and into range of any enemy pole weapons) and must have mega-defence that's boosted at every level, relying on the combination of statistics (Mskill+Mdef) and either HP or armour tanking to prevail, so that it's "impossible" for them to have a high investment into both HPs and fatigue.

[McGrits]

Originally posted by Estieukua:

Discussions like this always carry on with the implicit underlying assumption that 2-handers must be "frontline" troops and must advance straight into melee engagement with the enemy frontline (and into range of any enemy pole weapons) and must have mega-defence that's boosted at every level, relying on the combination of statistics (Mskill+Mdef) and either HP or armour tanking to prevail, so that it's "impossible" for them to have a high investment into both HPs and fatigue.

I would almost argue that during a 32-unit orc fight, every bro is a frontline unit.

What is interesting is that the new gun and mortar mechanics really shake up things. You almost want different armor against the new desert units. Bone plating doesn't work in the south and the sandpaper mechanics of the gilded weapons. Even for the big nomad fights with their high numbers of archers really strain bone plating. This effect really changes the nimble fashion more than the battle forged fashion in regards to armor attachments. So now instead of getting a zero fatigue armor attachment, you have to use a -2 fatigue attachment and plan new armors and helmets to fit the nimble fatigue negotiation.

[Hairy Coo]

Originally posted by McGrits:

Originally posted by Estieukua:

Discussions like this always carry on with the implicit underlying assumption that 2-handers must be "frontline" troops and must advance straight into melee engagement with the enemy frontline (and into range of any enemy pole weapons) and must have mega-defence that's boosted at every level, relying on the combination of statistics (Mskill+Mdef) and either HP or armour tanking to prevail, so that it's "impossible" for them to have a high investment into both HPs and fatigue.

I would almost argue that during a 32-unit orc fight, every bro is a frontline unit.

What is interesting is that the new gun and mortar mechanics really shake up things. You almost want different armor against the new desert units. Bone plating doesn't work in the south and the sandpaper mechanics of the gilded weapons. Even for the big nomad fights with their high numbers of archers really strain bone plating. This effect really changes the nimble fashion more than the battle forged fashion in regards to armor attachments. So now instead of getting a zero fatigue armor attachment, you have to use a -2 fatigue attachment and plan new armors and helmets to fit the nimble fatigue negotiation.

There is white uhold attachment that reduces ranged dmg taken.
Good for Nimble armor in fights against nomads or gobos. No extra fat needed, works better than any +armor piece

[Whatever100500]

Originally posted by Hairy Coo:

There is white uhold attachment that reduces ranged dmg taken.
Good for Nimble armor in fights against nomads or gobos. No extra fat needed, works better than any +armor piece

Does it work against guns though? I'm not 100% sure whether firearms are classified as ranged...

[Hairy Coo]

Originally posted by Whatever100500:

Originally posted by Hairy Coo:

There is white uhold attachment that reduces ranged dmg taken.
Good for Nimble armor in fights against nomads or gobos. No extra fat needed, works better than any +armor piece

Does it work against guns though? I'm not 100% sure whether firearms are classified as ranged...

I'd expect it to be, yeah. Its usually not firearms that get your nimble bro though, its mostly over9000 of gobo or nomad arrows

[Lampros]

Originally posted by Cat®:

While I can't speak for the relative effectiveness of NvBF now and then, I can tell you as long as you have the fatigue to wear it BF is the superior choice for 6AP-weapons. More consistent damage distribution and less perks spent on defence meaning more perks spent on killing.

I'd agree with this. In my limited testing for the new DLC, the biggest downfall of Nimble is that it needs at least Colossus and possibly Dodge. In contrast, Battle Forged just needs that. I realize some say you also need Brawny, but I short-circuit this need simply by only converting brothers with a huge Fatigue pool into 2H destroyers or duelists.

[McGrits]

Originally posted by Hairy Coo:

Originally posted by Whatever100500:

Does it work against guns though? I'm not 100% sure whether firearms are classified as ranged...

I'd expect it to be, yeah. Its usually not firearms that get your nimble bro though, its mostly over9000 of gobo or nomad arrows

over 9000!!!!!!!

\I have used the pimp cloak to save low rdef bros during the goblin city, but this new abrasive gun fire is different.