Easy mode IS too hard

[WishFish]

As simple as that. I have over 100 hours of playtime behind me, and the game is great btw but reflecting on the game difficulty on EASY setting, I think it is just broken.

How I would expect easy mode to look like (based on decades of gaming):
- at very first playthrough, w/o any prior experience with the game, I should be able to survive. Not thrive but survive.
- then I would figure out that the game is actually deep and that there are a lot of things to learn about and become better
- after that, playing on easy should become simple, meaning that I should be able to finish late-game crysis w/o any issues, possibly w/o losing any single brother in the process, and that is w/o any save-scumming
- at some point during the easy playthrough, player usually decides whether to continue playing on easy in order to learn the game mechanics better and simply to have fun (if it feels fun) or it is time to up the challenge, switch to some harder mode where difficulty which can mean anything from requiring player to stop and think, read game guides, watch other people play, save&load, try different approaches or participate in the secret Battle Brothers fans meetings where game mechanics formulas are revealed.

How easy mode looks like in Battle Brothers:
- at first (ten) playthrough, your whole gang is wiped within minutes of start
- for majority of players it ends here
- some players will then accept this as a challenge and try to learn more about the game
- gained knowledge includes things like "do not be afraid to save-scum" or "start the campaign dozen of times until you survive first 10 days". This should be valid for harder modes, not for easy mode

Now I am fully aware that some players just like it super hard and that majority of fans will obviously be that kind of players. And while I totally agree and understand that, I also think that the game should offer easier experience for new players to learn the game first or for those who just do not like the idea of having to save-scum or learn about the battle mechanics formulas just to be able to survive.

[JCSato]

I mean, I disagree that it's "broken", and with how you describe Beginner difficulty playing out. . .but that's besides the point.

What would you actually want changed about Beginner? You've described goals, but I'm not sure what one would do to achieve them (given that I've found many people experience what you describe as the "ideal" path on Beginner as it stands today).

Is it softer scaling? More scripted encounters beyond just the first Hoggart fight?

[WishFish]

No, I really mean just make the game easier on easy mode, as in less enemies, lower stats for enemies, better rewards etc.

[gungadin22000]

Yeah, I could get behind a "casual" difficulty being added below beginner.

[Typhon95]

Uh, it already is like that.Beginner combat makes you fight less enemies and you get a +5% to hit while the enemies get a -5% chance to hit, and with beginner economy you get better rewards

[Something completely different]

I think if you could reliably weather end game crisis on beginner without loses then beginner should be renamed to boring.

BB without any risk is not BB, it would be a mercenary company simulator. The game is sold as being tough and unforgiving for a reason, has creeds like 'Losing is fun' and such so you should realise you're not going to survive/ thrive without learning and losing.

Speaking with thirty years of gaming myself and 1350+ hours sunk in BB there.

Beginner therefore should not be made easier beyond the start (and even that could be a toggle.) I am all for more scripted encounters in which various weapons, their effects and tactics are touched upon to help new players learn the ropes but the game should not be a cakewalk. Not even on beginner. People won't have an incentive to learn if they aren't challenged.

If you want the game to let you win reliably you should get BB edit and raise your brothers stats with 30 each. That way you can weather everything the game tosses at you but you also won't learn to adept.

[Maloney]

I remember that it wasnt long before i was coasting through easy mode. I think it presents enough challenge to engage a new player while being managble from a learning perspective.

The whole scripted encounters thing could be good for explaining mechanics but i feel theres enough of that in the weapon and shop screens.

Maybe just some flavour text from a randomly selected brother when you encounter a new enemy unit for the first time telling you to watch out for X or something.

I wouldnt have thought it was worth a big investment of Dev time becuase there'd be a small fraction of the player base actively playing easy mode (i would think). Happy to be proved wrong it that's not the case.

[WishFish]

Was kinda expecting 1000+ players to start laughing. I understand that :)

Post was more about another perspective.

For majority of players (turn-based audience), game could be too hard, even on easy. Of course that on the global level you could find thousands of geniuses that will find easy mode too easy. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised for someone here to state that game is too easy on veteran and would like to have the difficulty tripled. It is a large world.

I lift 200 pounds in the gym. Let's remove anything below that as it's boring and no one needs it ;)
Of course if you would enter the gym that only has 200 pounds+ weights and say that, little would you be understood. So the post is for new players browsing the forum or hint for developers on how they could easily get a lot more players. Or just hoping to find little bit of approval (I got one ;))

[WishFish]

Don't get me wrong, I love the game, the art style, the music, the mechanics. I would enjoy it much more if it would be less brutal in the beginning. That's my perspective. And I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one.

[Cat®]

While I wouldn't mind a difficulty option that says "No struggle at all" because I like options, big fan of customising difficulty. I don't think you can make 'beginner' much easier without making it trivial. If it is trivial it is not interesting, and unlikely to foster interest in the game. I also think your own writing betrays you when you say this hypothetical difficulty should let you 'survive but not thrive', but then also say you think the first crisis should be consistently done flawlessly. Sounds like even you struggle to find a satisfactory middle-ground between what 'beginner' is now and a new difficulty could be. If it is too easy it bypasses the content of the game, and beginner is teetering on the edge already.

I think it is more reasonable that if a new difficulty be introduced it should be called 'explorer' and emphasise that it offers no challenge at all, just to highlight the mechanics, and that the game proper doesn't start until 'veteran'. Because this seems to be less an issue of what the game is throwing at you, and more an issue of what the player can achieve on their own; and the inherent probable failure state occurring in a game where RNG decides outcomes frequently.

Beginner seems to work fine, the player's approach does not. You can argue this is a problem of onboarding, but quite frankly I believe some games will always not appeal to someone for reasons in the player's control alone. I for one can not stand Dark Souls, I find it extremely tedious and frustratingly hard at the same time as it is so simple it is uninteresting. After beating a few bosses I gave up on having fun and dropped those games. I am in the minority with this opinion, and while I wouldn't be opposed to an 'explorer mode' for those games I also know that its function would be to bypass the part of the game the developers, and its audience, think is good. I do no think players finding a game unappealing is a bad thing for the art, only for the bottom line. I for one am not concerned about strangers' bottom lines.

[nightworg]

Originally posted by WishFish:

As simple as that. I have over 100 hours of playtime behind me, and the game is great btw but reflecting on the game difficulty on EASY setting, I think it is just broken.

How I would expect easy mode to look like (based on decades of gaming):
- at very first playthrough, w/o any prior experience with the game, I should be able to survive. Not thrive but survive.
- then I would figure out that the game is actually deep and that there are a lot of things to learn about and become better
- after that, playing on easy should become simple, meaning that I should be able to finish late-game crysis w/o any issues, possibly w/o losing any single brother in the process, and that is w/o any save-scumming
- at some point during the easy playthrough, player usually decides whether to continue playing on easy in order to learn the game mechanics better and simply to have fun (if it feels fun) or it is time to up the challenge, switch to some harder mode where difficulty which can mean anything from requiring player to stop and think, read game guides, watch other people play, save&load, try different approaches or participate in the secret Battle Brothers fans meetings where game mechanics formulas are revealed.

How easy mode looks like in Battle Brothers:
- at first (ten) playthrough, your whole gang is wiped within minutes of start
- for majority of players it ends here
- some players will then accept this as a challenge and try to learn more about the game
- gained knowledge includes things like "do not be afraid to save-scum" or "start the campaign dozen of times until you survive first 10 days". This should be valid for harder modes, not for easy mode

Now I am fully aware that some players just like it super hard and that majority of fans will obviously be that kind of players. And while I totally agree and understand that, I also think that the game should offer easier experience for new players to learn the game first or for those who just do not like the idea of having to save-scum or learn about the battle mechanics formulas just to be able to survive.

Untrue. You just have to learn the mechanic of the game. You do realize that some people have beaten the game on the hardest settings with cripples and beggars.

So if easy mode is too hard for you, it is because you don't play the fights the best way, or take on too difficult fights with your current roster.

You could look up some videos un YouTube since there are plenty who play the game on harder difficulty. Se how they do, and perhaps learn somthing.

[ridenation]

What they could do is make a new origin where you start with 3 lvl 30s in legendary gear. And have there starting wage low something like that.

[Wyrtt]

Well begginer with high startign funds is already like that. You have SO much money that you can buy good recruits and starting armor. Enemies scale slower. You can make much more mistakes and still recover.

How exactly you want to lower difficulty even more?
Start with 5k gold?
Get hidden +20% hit chance?
Start with roster of 4-5 guy equiped with tier 2 items?
Get x2-3 payment from contracts?
Lower prices of items on the market?
Remove certain enemies from the game?

[ridenation]

If you started with 3 guys 2 forge 1 nimble in top gear all max vet lvl it should be a breeze for people that strugle bad i just dont want beginer changed.

[turtle225]

As someone who learned the game on expert combat, beginner economy, my views may be warped.

Beginner already offers a large bonus in hit chance and avoidance.

I guess they could offer a new casual mode that drops scaling to .7 (beginner is .85) and then also grants a +10 hit/avoid boost (beginner is +5), but I honestly don't think it would stop threads from popping up saying that casual is too hard. It also runs the danger if teaching players bad habits because of that free hit/avoid lets you get away with things that wouldn't likely work consistently on Vet/Expert.

The easiest solution to anyone struggling on Beginner is to not force yourself to ironman. The single most important skill to learn as a player is the knowledge of which fights you can safely win or not, and that takes practice. Once you know your capabilities, you can choose to avoid overly dangerous fights, and the risk of wiping becomes very low.

[msunavygrad]

I wish BB's did not even include an "Ironman" option as I think it causes more complaints against the game from folks who have no business selecting that option in the first place. Anyone wanting to play Ironman could self impose the condition upon themselves anyhow.