Friendly fire rates too high for Crossbows

[Myll]

I can understand that standard Bows may have increased risk for friendly fire, as they were more volley driven in real life, but Crossbows were the snipers of their day, and there should be a significantly decreased chance of friendly fire using a Crossbow in this game. The rates are simply way too high and out of control, frankly it's way out of balance, and out of line with reality. With this low-fantasy game theme, let's keep the fantasy of high rates of friendly fire down also. Let's apply real-world metrics where they apply for a low-fantasy game, and that would mean lowering friendly fire chances for Crossbows.

Elevation is also not properly factored for lessening friendly fire. Elevating yourself provides better angles of fire, not just increased range. Elevation should factor in lessened friendly fire chances on a percentage basis for each level above your opponent that is in the face of your Battle Brother.

Some deeper history for those less-informed, when the Crossbow was at its prime, it was in use in the center of Pike Squares. Pikemen would keep opponents away, while Crossbowmen (and later musket pistols and early musket rifles) would be the short-range snipers to quickly cut down foes. This resulted in very LITTLE friendly fire incidents, not the outrageously high rates in this game. I like that this game presents the possibilities of Pike Square like battle, but let's present it more realistically, not with over-blown friendly fire.

[jpfalcon]

We tend to forget that as in all turn based games, the mercs and opponents are actualiy not simply standing still waiting for their turn, but involved in a constantly moving scrum...I have no issue with the current friendly fire rate....

[JamFalcon]

Honestly I only use like 1-2 archers any more and that is just to pick off necromancers and other archers. Once melee starts I am more likely to hit my own units then the enemy honestly so my archers end up sitting idle the rest of the battle or switching to a billhook,pike. They may fire 1-2 shots the entire battle. Every time I have used my archers in melee there is greater then avg chance to hit my own guys so I just dont bother.

[Sarissofoi]

If you use multistrikers you can use loose formations so enemy will move bettwen your soldiers and expose himself to your ranged troopers.

[Muscarine]

I personally avoid any shot that could result in friendly fire unless it's a last resort option.

Otherwise, create chokepoints where foes will be forced to pack together, meaning you can shoot at someone behind and ensure it hits another enemy if ever "friendly fire" procs.
Blobs of enemies are great because chances are your projectiles will always find something juicy to land on.
You can also push foes before firing, shield bash > shield wall = enemy gets shot at and has to come back at you with a single attack at most.
If chokepoints aren't possible, have your ranged mercs maneuver around, with the help of pathfinder.

[Troll]

Friendly fire is pretty brutal, but it ensure the weapon is not all you need to win the fight. Otherwise as an opposite extreme you'd end up a few tanks in front and en army of crossbowmen taking down the army.
I also have suffered many losses to my troupes, often by miscalculation, quite a few time very unfairly (like getting my heaviest warrior losing half health and crippled in a shot) but overall it averages as it should.

[Myll]

Originally posted by steven.aus:

Having a higher chance to hit does reduce the chance of it hitting someone else (because it can only hit someone else if it fails the check to hit the target). But yes, friendly fire is annoying. Still, it might be a bit too easy if you hardly ever hit your own guys.

Reality is more important than whether it is "too easy." I'm fully aware of the reality of movement, but a line of spears (or more preferably - pikes or halberds) keeps enemy at bay and enables ease of firing missiles at your opponent, even in a constantly moving fight. You're confusing rugby with war - there's no "scrum" when you face the head of a spear or pike or halberd! You either are risking your life rushing into that pointy mess, or you hesitate and back off, sometimes with the thud of a halberd's axe or spike landing right on top of your head. All the while, Crossbowmen are sitting in the middle of that pike square and firing effectively and accurately at foes outside of it, albeit slow rates of fire.

I'd rather see this type of "reality" applied in the game, than "gamesmanship" of numbers that aren't realistic and true to form for battles involving weapons that create space and enable accurate missile fire, rather than this overblown friendly fire rate we have in the current game.

The game is low-fantasy, and I enjoy that. I don't enjoy the "low reality" rates presented with the current mix of ranged warfare, however.

[Muscarine]

No reality is not more important than game mechanics.
Pike distance of push is 1+ square which incidentely is also the closest firing distance where you can avoid friendly fire.
If you want to talk about the effects of a line of spear then use it properly.
Otherwise if you shoot at an enemy located in a tile adjacent to one of your units, you're ordering to shoot volleys of bolts against moving targets engaged in close combat 50cm behind friendlies who happen to also be moving themselves.

There's a huge difference between a realistic setting (believable) and realistic gameplay (simulation).

On top of that you're not telling us what's you crossbowman's ranged stat before commenting on FF occurrences for one, and second, even if they were to reduce FF from say 30% to 10% you're still bound to shoot your allies 10 times in a row.
Because you're trying your luck which is a/ not something you'd be doing when allies lives are at the pointy end of the dice, b/ not how you should take on games featuring RNG to hit chance.

[Myll]

You're missing the point here - if a spearman is on the front line, that in itself creates space (at least, it should). There should be a specific reduced penalty to friendly fire on 2 factors:
1. Crossbows vs bows. Crossbows are more point-fire accurate. Again, Crossbows were the "sniper" weapons of their day, but you have to understand, that this type of single-target fire was very very close range, just at the tip of the spear, literally. An enemy/opponent was expected to be right next to your spear/pikemen! (and engaged with a Crossbow!)
2. Spearmen should cause a factor of friendly fire chance reduction, because they create MORE space than other weapons (except Pikes, which should have a greater space/friendly fire reduction factor) -- even if the opponent is in the next tile over!

Look, you can argue all you want about game mechanics, but I am offering game mechanic solutions to at least compromise to make this out-of-hand friendly fire come back to reality.

The Lore is way off as result, also. Here's a specific example in another test game: the starting Battle Brother with Ranged/Crossbow, in the text it says that "____ is one of the more talented Marksmen you've encountered..." or such - yet in the very first fight of the game he hits a fellow Battle Brother twice for lack of aim. Regardless the one-space tile difference, regardless that there is a later Perk to reduce Friendly Fire, the fact is that the starting Friendly Fire chances are way, way out of hand (and way too high).

This is a Game Balance issue, take it or leave it.

EDIT: and as reminder, as I stated in the Original Post, that Elevation is not currently factoring, that I can tell, to reduce Friendly Fire rates either, and yet it should due to better angles of fire. In war, the High Ground matters, more than just being able to see/range things, it's about Angle of Fire also for those in the know...

[Muscarine]

Originally posted by bscoms:

You're missing the point here - if a spearman is on the front line, that in itself creates space (at least, it should). There should be a specific reduced penalty to friendly fire on 2 factors:
1. Crossbows vs bows. Crossbows are more point-fire accurate. Again, Crossbows were the "sniper" weapons of their day, but you have to understand, that this type of single-target fire was very very close range, just at the tip of the spear, literally. An enemy/opponent was expected to be right next to your spear/pikemen! (and engaged with a Crossbow!)
2. Spearmen should cause a factor of friendly fire chance reduction, because they create MORE space than other weapons (except Pikes, which should have a greater space/friendly fire reduction factor) -- even if the opponent is in the next tile over!

Look, you can argue all you want about game mechanics, but I am offering game mechanic solutions to at least compromise to make this out-of-hand friendly fire come back to reality.

The Lore is way off as result, also. Here's a specific example in another test game: the starting Battle Brother with Ranged/Crossbow, in the text it says that "____ is one of the more talented Marksmen you've encountered..." or such - yet in the very first fight of the game he hits a fellow Battle Brother twice for lack of aim. Regardless the one-space tile difference, regardless that there is a later Perk to reduce Friendly Fire, the fact is that the starting Friendly Fire chances are way, way out of hand (and way too high).

This is a Game Balance issue, take it or leave it.

EDIT: and as reminder, as I stated in the Original Post, that Elevation is not currently factoring, that I can tell, to reduce Friendly Fire rates either, and yet it should due to better angles of fire. In war, the High Ground matters, more than just being able to see/range things, it's about Angle of Fire also for those in the know...

This completely subjective and has nothing to do with actual "balance issue take it or leave it", you've been offered enough to understand, if you don't it's on you.
Just don't try to pass some highly biased opinion as a fact.
Stop shooting at targets standing right next to your friendlies unless panick button, it's that simple. Push, maneuver.
The spear/pike space you're pointlessly arguing about is in game in the form of push and retaliate>push, there's a reason why adjacent tiles targets can be hit with daggers. And frankly that's not even relevant, the reality vs game design is a semantic trap, you're pointlessly trying to talk about realism because you fail to process a simple mechanic.

And we have yet to know what's your crossbow users stats, which is kinda crucial, somehow.

edit - to make myself clearer, talk numbers, this realism debate is leading nowhere.
What's your FF rate estimation, do you realise it's not a fixed %
What's your unit's ranged attack stat
What's your to hit chance at the moment
Does your unit have bullseye
Are you trying to shoot straight through friendlies, and how many friendly vs foes are adjacent to the target
What makes you say elevation doesn't help (since it increases to hit chance)
etc

At the moment your argument is like saying total war spearmen should be safe from your archers shooting at their attackers because spears create distance.

[Skjelluv]

Oh, and btw, OP: Spears DO create more space in BB if you are Smart enough to use "spearwall". Pikes not having this ability in BB is another topic.

Your constant repetition of crossbows being "the snipers of their days" doesn't make it more true. It's simply easier to train crossbowmen than archers, but a good archer can aim just as good as a crossbow user. I'd be interested in knowing where you got the sniper thing from.

[Sweem]

I am a beginner and i am pissed off at friendly fire. My last battle was lost because i killed 2 of my 5 men due to ff. this sucks.

[Sten]

Originally posted by Sweem:

I am a beginner and i am pissed off at friendly fire. My last battle was lost because i killed 2 of my 5 men due to ff. this sucks.

On your tactics work more, young padavan. If your own men you may hit, do not shoot. May Force be with you!

[Sendos]

Friendly fire is a must in this game, otherwise ranged units would be OP af. Just don't take the risk.

[Chief]

Friendly Fire is good as it is. You have to learn that untrained BB just bad shooting, either in the ground or on a friend/-enemy next to it. Also with good archers/-crossbowmen the risk is high enough but acceptable in some situations. Change your position and fire or wait for melee hits. Otherwise, that range attacks would be OP.

Use special perks and the right weapons to increase the chances of success and on the other hand have an eye on the distance to minimize the risk. The Spike Impaler is a very good weapon for crossbowmen's because the weapon is stronger, looks good and throws the enemy back a field.

Archer and crossbow are both good, depends on the player tactics. Eagle Eye is a good trait for archers and with the right perks you can shoot far enough with thick helmet.

[Sir Clavius]

Also, dont forget that AI may get same rules...That means that you are going to get hit more often by enemy archers, goblins...