Rotation vs. Footwork

[Rude$t]

I've always been more of a rotation guy. But, lately I've been digging footwork to lay into priority targets. What do you guys think are the pros and cons between mass Footwork vs. mass Rotation on all your dudes?

I think the advantages of rotation are that bros can save each other. It can save bro's life depending on his position on the initiative table. It allows for more aggressive perk choices on key roles that skip the mobility feat.

Footwork seems to offer more aggression and self-reliance. But, the self reliance is kind of moot if you're taking one of these perks on everyone. It's also great for aggression, repositioning or kiting.

[turtle225]

Never been much of a fan of Footwork. I think Rotation is better both offensively and defensively.

[suejak]

Sorry for dodging the question a bit, but I don't usually think "all one thing on everybody because it's The Best Perk" is a good idea. (Although this may or may not be a case like Adrenaline or Overwhelm where taking it on multiple guys at once is very powerful.)

Putting all your eggs in one basket means you're a lot more vulnerable to RNG and you don't have a lot of tactical tools at your disposal.

Part of the point of the different perks IMO is to allow for more tactical diversity is a wider range of situations. Specialists are (generally!) better than generalists, although some perks are hard to make use of in a specialized way.

Examples of situations where Footwork is useful:

Another guy might Rotate a Footworker into a nasty situation (saving the Rotater) and then you can Footwork the Footworker to safety, improving your tactical position. This helps you to fight on your terms rather than enemy's and helps keep your guys on good land. I used this once to run from a nasty fight, too.

Ranged backliners often want to just get away so they can attack, and they're more likely to be isolated from Rotaters.

Tactical spearwallers of various kinds can Footwork to reset spearwall (e.g. Adrenaline+Recover, then Footwork+Spearwall).

There's a decent argument for having Footwork on certain utility roles like fencer, who would prefer to be Lunging all the time and not stuck on a single target. Plus, he's sometimes (often?) not in range of Rotaters.

Some players argue that Footwork helps you avoid taking damage on your guys by actively avoiding damage vs. passively tanking it. These players use this justify tons of fatigue and relatively little HP, for example.

[Rude$t]

Well, I mean you're right. 'All in' isn't usually how I think of either of these perks. More of a thought exercise. I guess ultimately it is an apples/oranges situation.

[Noog]

Originally posted by Rude$t:

I've always been more of a rotation guy. But, lately I've been digging footwork to lay into priority targets. What do you guys think are the pros and cons between mass Footwork vs. mass Rotation on all your dudes?

I think the advantages of rotation are that bros can save each other. It can save bro's life depending on his position on the initiative table. It allows for more aggressive perk choices on key roles that skip the mobility feat.

Footwork seems to offer more aggression and self-reliance. But, the self reliance is kind of moot if you're taking one of these perks on everyone. It's also great for aggression, repositioning or kiting.

I've never been a user of rotation myself, which kind of brother do you put it on? two handers or shield bros?

[Rude$t]

Early disposable bros that either die or become 1handed mace reservists and dedicated Shield Bros/Taunt builds usually. These are two roles that can handle the danger of rotating in. Sometimes two handers and duelists, but lately I've gotten away from that. Works out pretty good for quickhands/polearm hybrids that sometimes cap the ends of flanks to pull people out of trouble and pull out a pocket shield or go into indom.

Granted, the more rotation you have the more likely you'll have someone who can use it when you need it. I kind of think of it like a more universal version of Steel Brow. Rather than a passive approach to guarding against surprise burst damage it's an active one. It also has offensive applications too though.

[w.f.schepel]

Rotation is more of a generalist perk whereas footwork is a specialist perk. Rotation is also *very* useful in fights where you have AI allies as you can rotate friendly AI as well. Also, rotation allows you to be get into a spot that is already occupied. Especially relevant when you need a clear line of fire. IMHO, rotation is generally more useful. That said, it always depends on the kind of tactics you want to use and the enemy you are fighting. Against big monsters it can be quite useful to have footwork because you don't want anybody in direct contact.

[feeWAIVER]

Lately I've been running both rotation and footwork on my Spear tanks.

Rotation to get in and out of combat as needed, to get critically wounded allies out of combat late in the round (as my spear guys tend to be low initiative, and move at the end of the round.)

Footwork to back out and set a new spear wall, because sometimes that guy who is holding off the hordes has a bad roll and an enemy breaks through. Backing up a step to reset your spearwall is fantastic. (also again, because my spears tend to be lower initiate, it gives the surrounding high initiative bros a chance to make room for his footwork.)

[feeWAIVER]

Originally posted by I require go:

I've never been a user of rotation myself, which kind of brother do you put it on? two handers or shield bros?

Some people only do front liners.
I put rotate on basically every guy.

Rotate = opportunities for more hits on a single target in a round.
Rotate = opportunities to trade places to "share" hp and armor amongst your team.
Rotate = opportunities to get your critically wounded bro's out of combat and hiding in a bush for the rest of the match.

[Saint Thomas d'Aquin]

Do you think taking both perks on a brother can be useful or it's a waste ?

[Vertibird]

taking both perks is overkill, choose one.

[feeWAIVER]

Originally posted by Saint Thomas d'Aquin:

Do you think taking both perks on a brother can be useful or it's a waste ?

Originally posted by Vertibird:

taking both perks is overkill, choose one.

I don't think having more options is overkill, or a waste, on Spear Bros.

Think of perks being divided in 3 catagories:

Stat Bonuses:
Colosus, Fortified Mind, Gifted, Brawny,Underdog, BF/Nimble, etc.
(perks that make your stats go further through passive play.)

Active Abilities:
Adreniline, Recover, Rotate, Rally, Taunt, Foot Work, Indom.
(these are buttons to push, creating new options in gameplay)

Combat Feats:
Quick Hands, Nine Lives, Crippling Strikes, Berzerk, Killing Frenzy, Fearsome, Overwhelm, etc.
(these are combat enhancers and procs.)

_______________________________________

I have found that, imo, a dedicated spear bro has less use for Combat Feats than other bros, and more use for Active Abilities. Their job is to stave off encroaching hordes as long as possible, to keep distance for range to thin the herd.

Footwork gives them a chance to reset their spearwall and hold them off a few more rounds.

Failing that, their job is to face tank enemies and keep my throwers, archers, xbows, and pikemen safe, and that is where Rotate becomes useful.



That said, I don't use Footwork on my ranged.

Every Archer/Xbow/Thrower has Quickhands and a melee weapon backing them up, and they are expected to share their armor with the team.

My Archers/Xbows switch to Great Swords, unless replaced by a famed weapon that happens to be better.

My Throwers switch to 1h sword + shield. I only use Duelist on my Throwers if I have a really good famed 1 handed weapon I want to use with them. (Because what's the point of using a ranged weapon that allows the defense of shields, if you aren't going to take advantage of that defense?)

But my Spears don't use Quickhands, so that alone is a good trade off for Rotate or Footwork.

My Spears also don't use Killing Frenzy. Because what is 25% more of a spear? Sure, it may sometimes be substantial, but my Spears get the least mileage out of Killing Frenzy than anyone else on the team, so if someone's gonna drop it, it's Spears.

So that's another talent worth trading off for Rotate or Footwork, imo.
I'd rather get another round or two ping ponging the undead back, or an opportunity to get another bro out of a bad situation, than do 12 more damage sometimes.

See where I'm going with this?

[Shoikan]

Originally posted by suejak:

Tactical spearwallers of various kinds can Footwork to reset spearwall (e.g. Adrenaline+Recover, then Footwork+Spearwall).

@suejak Do you have characters that get the spear mastery perk, or just a good melee character that temporarily uses a spear?

After reading a lot of the downsides of spears I quit choosing spear mastery, but in horde fights sometimes give someone a spear. Downside is the first enemy that doesn't get pushed back ends the wall

@feeWAIVER I've been specializing 50-75% my ranged units and give them footwork which allows them to never need melee def and pour those stats into ranged def or other. I like your idea of sharing armor, but am thinking thru the impacts of having a lower rng def stat and a higher melee stat. It seems like this also drives you to spread stats between melee/range attack. I'm curious if you specialize range stats on any archers, have some mixed melee VS range attack, other?

[feeWAIVER]

Originally posted by DocCroaker:

Originally posted by suejak:

Tactical spearwallers of various kinds can Footwork to reset spearwall (e.g. Adrenaline+Recover, then Footwork+Spearwall).

@suejak Do you have characters that get the spear mastery perk, or just a good melee character that temporarily uses a spear?

After reading a lot of the downsides of spears I quit choosing spear mastery, but in horde fights sometimes give someone a spear. Downside is the first enemy that doesn't get pushed back ends the wall

@feeWAIVER I've been specializing 50-75% my ranged units and give them footwork which allows them to never need melee def and pour those stats into ranged def or other. I like your idea of sharing armor, but am thinking thru the impacts of having a lower rng def stat and a higher melee stat. It seems like this also drives you to spread stats between melee/range attack. I'm curious if you specialize range stats on any archers, have some mixed melee VS range attack, other?

I do use Spear Mastery.
For one, you get fatigue reduction for using spears and spearwall, but also the when you get 1 guy on you early in the round, you can still knock back his 2 buddies that are about to try to jump on you. Then your allies can often just kill the one guy that got on you. It's just too good not to take.

My high lvl spear guys have to pack an extra spear, because their ability to spearwall will outlast the endurance of their spears.
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My feelings on sharing armor is greatly influenced by years playing Mechwarrior Online, where armor is limited and there are no repairs/heals. Individuals need to share armor for the group to survive.

All my ranged are melee hybrid. Everyone is expected to melee if they have to.
If they have low def stats, they get Throwing+Shield to supplement defense.

I don't agree, personally, with the ranged units fleeing- it just breaks up your line and exposes weaknesses to ranged attacks. The ranged should instead punish anyone who pushes into them.

My archers/xbows typically have high initiative/Dodge, and Quickhands to switch to 2 handers.
Imagine an xbow guy on the back edge getting threatened by 3 orcs- Bolt one in the face, then quickhands to a 2 handed sword and AOE all 3. Any still standing is wounded, and can be finished by other nearby bros in that round, and my formation stays intact.



IF I did decide to use footwork on a ranged, it would only be on an Archer, because they cannot attack with bow at 1 tile, so they don't get the combo that xbows have..
But even then, having a "pure ranged", what happens when he get's boxed in to the point that he can't footwork to anywhere safe? It's better just to expect them to fight, imo.

[CHOO CHOO]

I use footwork for all ranged brothers, and as a "maybe" on flank guards.
I use rotation for all centerline melee brothers, and as a "maybe" on everyone.

I also have pathfinder on absolutely everyone, no exceptions - so maybe I'm just partial to high mobility.