If this game was an PVP MMO....

[feeWAIVER]

I was thinking about if this game was an MMO. If Seeds were Servers, and Merc companies roaming the map had a chance to be other players, what would be the strongest Origins and Perks?

Interestingly, I think a lot of the weaker perks would be strong in PVP.
Anticipation would be an excellent perk against other players.
Bullseye would be great for taking down that injured enemy that rotated to the back line, or that guy with the whip that keeps disarming you..
Fortitified Mind would probably be more commonly used, I think, because Fearsome would be commonly used.
Mace Mastery would be much stronger, because crowd control is always an important part of the meta when playing against a live opponent.
I could also imagine players taking both Rotate and Footwork, because mobility would be king.


What would be the best Origin?
Poachers would have a big advantage on the map, for only engaging in fights they want to..
Deserters would have a better chance to escape a PK.
Cultists would have a big battlefield advantage, I think... but Peasant Army would have a numbers advantage...

What would be best?

[The Duck Knight]

well. The WORST would be the lone wolf start, I guess.
I also think that crossbows would be a FAR bigger thing for sniping out these heavy armored hitters before they reach melee.
I also think that spears would be a far bigger thing for more crow dcontrol.
ALSO Adrenalin because that is already one of the best perks and controlling who gets the first actual attacks of a combat would be even more important.

[feeWAIVER]

Originally posted by The Duck Knight:

well. The WORST would be the lone wolf start, I guess.
I also think that crossbows would be a FAR bigger thing for sniping out these heavy armored hitters before they reach melee.
I also think that spears would be a far bigger thing for more crow dcontrol.
ALSO Adrenalin because that is already one of the best perks and controlling who gets the first actual attacks of a combat would be even more important.

That's a good point. I just realized there is no mob type that makes you deal with spear wall.

[feeWAIVER]

My dream game at this point in my life would be Battle Brothers Online.
Basically shared seeds with a gear score that matches similar players and phases them into each other game.
So players are collectively effecting the same world, but only run into one another if it's an even fight.

(Ofcourse, this would have to be played in an ironman mode, and when your band retires or die, the endgame score should carry over on the account level to spend point on your next game.)

I gotta be careful how much I fantasize here, before my discussion becomes a suggestion, and my thread moved lmao.

But man I would love to see Lone Wolf vs Peasant Militia, and scenarios like that.

[turtle225]

PvP would never work the way this game operates.

Players would avoid any PvP that is threatening to them. So it would just turn into gank fests where strong companies murder weak companies and there is no counter play.

Battle Brothers perma-death is too merciless to allow for a PvP environment.

[ElDuderino]

A pvp arena or similar could work though. Every map has one city with an 'arena'. You'd get matched with players with similar gear and avg lvl. Temporary injuries only of course.

[feeWAIVER]

Originally posted by turtle225:

PvP would never work the way this game operates.

Players would avoid any PvP that is threatening to them. So it would just turn into gank fests where strong companies murder weak companies and there is no counter play.

Battle Brothers perma-death is too merciless to allow for a PvP environment.

Disagree. Mordheim has permanent injuries and death, and it has multiplayer done through a match making system. While a lobby system is fine, this game has an amazing platform for online play built into it's maps.

It would simply need a large map that everyone contributes to.
You would see NPC's roaming around just like currently, and if 2 players are of similar level/gear score, the game may match them to interact with each other.

This would open up tons of avenues for competitive and cooperative play.

Imagine a noble crisis, where you are matched against another player for the fate of a town.
Imagine defending a city from Undead with 2 other players, in a massive 36 vs 150 battle.

There is a niche for high risk online games, and the low system requirements of BB makes it highly accessible to audiences.

[turtle225]

You are focusing too much on fun epic battles without considering the problem that when you die (and you will die in pvp) then that's it. Have to start over and spend another billion hours getting back to the crisis without getting killed off again.

It would be like playing Dark Souls but every time you die in PvP your save gets deleted.

I think there is room for cooperative play. Multiple players existing on the same map and working together could be fun. PvP in an arena setting that is regulated and has no risk of perma death could maybe work. But if PvP just plays out like normal gameplay then everyone will avoid it because Battle Brothers is largely about choosing battles that won't get you killed and PvP will have a drastically higher chance to get brothers killed than anything else in the game. Nobody wants to suicide their day (x) company into a PvP battle when they can fight just about anything else and get away with no deaths.

[feeWAIVER]

Originally posted by turtle225:

You are focusing too much on fun epic battles without considering the problem that when you die (and you will die in pvp) then that's it. Have to start over and spend another billion hours getting back to the crisis without getting killed off again.

It would be like playing Dark Souls but every time you die in PvP your save gets deleted.

I think there is room for cooperative play. Multiple players existing on the same map and working together could be fun. PvP in an arena setting that is regulated and has no risk of perma death could maybe work. But if PvP just plays out like normal gameplay then everyone will avoid it because Battle Brothers is largely about choosing battles that won't get you killed and PvP will have a drastically higher chance to get brothers killed than anything else in the game. Nobody wants to suicide their day (x) company into a PvP battle when they can fight just about anything else and get away with no deaths.

I think you're downplaying the high reward that can come with the risk-
Developing a rivalry with another player, and killing or crippling their best bro's.
Looting famed gear from other players.
Competing in a noble war for your side to have access to better towns.

It doesn't have to be Game Over when you lose. Lots of things could be done to facilitate online play-
Increasing roster size caps.
Reworking retreat mechanics.
Lower chance of death/permenant injury from falling in battle.
Carrying over Game Over Points to invest in your next company, so you still have a sense of progression.

Lots of Online games have permanent destruction of player assets- EVE Online, Darkfall, Mortal, Albion, UO, Mordheim, etc.

And obviously other mechanics would have to be implemented-
Like a play timer, that will punish people for taking too long to move- like a moral check if you don't move every 30 seconds or whatever. So players who AFK to grief will eventually be routed.

And there would need to be a deployment phase so people don't get hosed by RNG, unless it's a legit ambush.

[WorstFriend]

Originally posted by feeWAIVER:

Originally posted by turtle225:

Reworking retreat mechanics.

I think , "Give up" option, that allows you retreat without penalties (but, certainly, also without any equipmrnt from your fallen brothers) when (your force/opp force) ratio is below 2/3 is good for 1v1 PvP battle.

[Whatever100500]

Originally posted by WorstFriend:

I think , "Give up" option, that allows you retreat without penalties (but, certainly, also without any equipmrnt from your fallen brothers) when (your force/opp force) ratio is below 2/3 is good for 1v1 PvP battle.

Losing 1 veteran bro is already unacceptable loses. You can't that clean victory over other player unless it's literally day 1 peasants vs post-crisis elites.

[gazomierz]

I mostly agree with turtle225. In current state BB wouldn't really work as mmo. Map and mechanics based around it are too focused and tailored for solo play. Same goes for overall progression curve. And loads of other small things.

What could work tho would be some system of battles/matches. Think smth along the lines of Mordheim or Blood Bowl. Smth like that could be great. But it would require creating entire new game, taking pretty much only combat and merc progression mechanics from original BB.

Maybe an idea for a spin-off or dlc (unlikely).


Edit:
And, to be honest, it's not like BB needs multiplayer aspect. Too many games try at multi and utterly fail. But they somehow feel that just every single game needs multi. Thank God for dedicated single player games like BB.

I wouldn't mind a spin-off tho :)

[Shoebsy]

I think Gazomierz said pretty much the best thing.. A spin-off would be neet, maybe instead of just 1VS1 focus (By the way.. Please stop misusing the term "MMO".. "Massively" is a key term in that phrase) we could have a max roster of 3-5 men, than be asked to combine co-operatively with others players.. Starting a battle would intiate a 'wait' for a few seconds for others to join.. Keeps the game from just being an ultra competitive gank fest, and at least a co-operative, ultra competitive gank fest.



But that also means asking people to wait while some player does a battle, and griefing villages could ruin 'servers'.. and imagine starting out on a server as a 3-man default start.. but the world already being in a Orc Invasion...



Theres way too many things that need to change to make it anything more than just Competitive battles.

[feeWAIVER]

Originally posted by Kiroshi:

(By the way.. Please stop misusing the term "MMO".. "Massively" is a key term in that phrase)

A massive seed that supports hundreds of players to interact with it's politics and economy, while a background matchmaker only allows physical interaction between those of similar level and gearscore would be an MMO.

[feeWAIVER]

Anyways, people are hung up on the technical logistics of Multiplayer, while ignoring the meat of the topic? What would be the best pvp perks? Would you take Fearsome? Bullseye? Anticipation? Shield Expert? Would you be more inclined to run shields on your throwers, or would you still go duelist? Would you run more spears? Would everyone have cleavers? Would bags and belts become mandatory? etc etc..

What would be the strongest origins? Would a peasant army defeat a lone wolf company?
Would high lvl cultists be too OP?

Pure Theorycraft!

[Aetini]

Originally posted by feeWAIVER:

Anyways, people are hung up on the technical logistics of Multiplayer, while ignoring the meat of the topic? What would be the best pvp perks? Would you take Fearsome? Bullseye? Anticipation? Shield Expert? Would you be more inclined to run shields on your throwers, or would you still go duelist? Would you run more spears? Would everyone have cleavers? Would bags and belts become mandatory? etc etc..

What would be the strongest origins? Would a peasant army defeat a lone wolf company?
Would high lvl cultists be too OP?

Pure Theorycraft!

I love Lone Wolf but - even with a slightly upgraded Lone Wolf (not-veteran vs not-verterans) there is a good chance 4-5 Peasants could still overwhelm a Lone Wolf.

I know from experience with brigands that a Lone Wolf can beat 6 Brigands with very low lost armor or dmg... but on the flip side if you get stun locked (which would happen in PVP as Lone Wolf vs Peasants) you're ♥♥♥♥♥♥.

There's also the issue of Fatigue. If you miss or do badly on the first 2-3 "Swings" or "Splits" then you will drown in enemies - even with good normal attacks.

Obviously though... the higher rank the Lone Wolf is the better he'd do.
He still might have trouble with equally high level peasants but I'd take a bet and say a Lone Wolf Lvl 12 has a good chance to wipe the floor with up to 6 Peasants Lvl 12.

There is also morale. Morale would play heavily in a scenario like this. Too many peasant losses (or Fearsome on the Lone Wolf or some other morale damaging factor) and the peasants route and die. Too low base morale and the Lone Wolf might break

If you are really curious - play some Lone Wolf without any recruits for a few days.