daggers vs flails.

[happy]

i dunno, i use flails but not daggers.

daggers need you to switch wps while in combat, while flails with headshots do not, also flails ignore shields.

I read that daggers work best in combination with a stun guy to incapacitate the target, so it's a combo thing.

Why use a combo thing, and multiple daggers when you can just headshot?

I find flails to be more convenient, it does damage, it's useful in all situations, i don't have to switch, and i don 't need a mace dude.

So what am i missing?

I did not look at the fatigue stats for the wps, nor did i make stats on the % of successful armor loot, but i have a reason for that: i don't feel like i need to as my flails do the job.

Make me smarter, or make me a memester.

[CHOO CHOO]

Flails destroy helmets, I guess?

[wms]

dagger puncture bypass armors completely. While flail head shot needs to destroy helmet first.

The stun combo is to prevent the target from fleeing. when target flees, all hits destroys armor too.

[UnluckyNoob]

You don't need any combo to use dagger. Wait till 2h hedge knight end turn, move to melee and puncture twice. Puncture 3 more times next turn and he is dead. Also you may surround last remaining shield boss and finish him using 6 daggers without even investing point in dagger mastery.

Generally dagger is specialized weapon and flail is just useless after first 30-40 days.

[happy]

I don't know how you guys play, but i never have a potent foe that sits there waiting for me to puncture it.

My enemies go into melee, be them hedge knights, fallen heroes etc, and are a priority target if i don't want to lose bros.

I use bros that suck early game, each fight is a fight for survival, if i fool around with daggers in the middle of a fight....I'm dead^^

If i leave the potent enemy alone, in order to puncture it at the end of the battle, I lose 2 bros.

Flails often allow me to hit them, where as any other weapon but spears tend to miss.

I'm sure that what you say unlucky noob is tested and proven, I'm sure it works,, I'm also sure I will not hit 5 times in a row with bros that have 58 melee.

Daggers are probably awesome on good bros against foes with no shields, but... my bros suck and most enemies have shields...

Do daggers have a to hit bonus?

that would change a lot of things.

[Hrymr]

Flails are more useful early in the game when brigand riders are still very dangerous and attempts to dagger them may end badly. With flail you can just pop the head of helmetless riders quickly eliminating them and getting their armor intact.

[flameDjinn]

I lose my only flail bro at ~50 day, so i didn't play with flails too much. But i think flails assumes, that your entire team have flails, otherwise some of them will hit to body, some of them will hit to head and it simply prolongs enemy life. So with flails you really need an flail team combo, while with daggers you need only 1 guy with mace mastery. I think many people plays without him, but it will be harder.

Originally posted by UnluckyNoob:

Wait till 2h hedge knight end turn, move to melee and puncture twice. Puncture 3 more times next turn and he is dead.

5 successful puncture strikes in a row? It is a fairy tale, especially vs guys with shield. I am using stun guy, because when i frist meet brigand leader, he have a far greater stats then any of my guys, and he will simply kill a few brothers while they will trying to puncture him.

[happy]

to answer felix: I have 6 flail guys when i don't need spears on my flanks, otherwise i have 4.

Late game i of course have 2 handers.

[pascal.difolco]

Originally posted by happy:

I don't know how you guys play, but i never have a potent foe that sits there waiting for me to puncture it.

My enemies go into melee, be them hedge knights, fallen heroes etc, and are a priority target if i don't want to lose bros.

I use bros that suck early game, each fight is a fight for survival, if i fool around with daggers in the middle of a fight....I'm dead^^

If i leave the potent enemy alone, in order to puncture it at the end of the battle, I lose 2 bros.

Flails often allow me to hit them, where as any other weapon but spears tend to miss.

I'm sure that what you say unlucky noob is tested and proven, I'm sure it works,, I'm also sure I will not hit 5 times in a row with bros that have 58 melee.

Daggers are probably awesome on good bros against foes with no shields, but... my bros suck and most enemies have shields...

Well well that's in the beginning, before level 5 just trying to survive is sound.
Tactics above are for level 10+ (at least), when you have >200 prot equipment.

[happy]

then...what's the point of getting armor when you already have armor?^^

I mean, i get it's nice but isn't getting decent armor more important when you have 80-110 ones than when you already have 210+?

Hence the flails over daggers.

[UnluckyNoob]

Originally posted by felix:

Originally posted by UnluckyNoob:

Wait till 2h hedge knight end turn, move to melee and puncture twice. Puncture 3 more times next turn and he is dead.

5 successful puncture strikes in a row? It is a fairy tale, especially vs guys with shield. I am using stun guy, because when i frist meet brigand leader, he have a far greater stats then any of my guys, and he will simply kill a few brothers while they will trying to puncture him.

You don't need 5 hits to kill hedge knight. 3 or 4 will be enough. No shield of course. There is no reason to kill shielded bosses quickly. Even if he'll somehow survives, you may also pick overwhelm. 3 stacks of overwhelm is not a joke.

When you first meet brigand leader, he'll throw his axes for a few turns. That's enough time to deal with raiders. After that surround him with 6 brothers and he'll flee wiht 50% chance. If not, you just need to land a single puncture. Same tactic works vs fallen heroes. They don't flee, but they are too slow to attack and shield up at the same turn. If you have some problems with hit chance, throw a net.

[Crax]

Flails are super useful at the beginning, but their usefulness runs out the longer the game goes because they have a low minimum damage. While they're useful against shielded opponents like Ancient Dead, sometimes you just feel like saying ♥♥♥♥ it to ignore shield bonus and destroy them the normal way, simply because it's faster and cost less Fatigue.

[happy]

so to sum it up:

flails are better early game but fall short later on, i stick to them out of habit since they never really cause me any trouble, late game, when you already have armor and see one you really want, a dagger bro does a better job since...you need one bro, not 4.

Thanks all.

[NM9G]

Also you mentioned earlier that spears seem to miss, but in fact they have a +20% bonus hit chance on a normal attack, but they do fall out mostly after the early game, except for when fighting fleshy undead/ ghosts. But yeah, daggers vs certain raiders/ higher armoured foes are very effective and take very little to no investment to use. Also goblin daggers have a bonus 10% chance to hit (at least I am pretty sure it is 10%)

[Aiden]

Both are situationally useful, and really depend on the state of the game. Early game flails are great to eliminate the enemies you fight the most, raiders, and zombies. flails fal off once you start getting later into the game, i prefer to make my flal guys utility, they typically either take flail/hammer or flail/mace for the ones that i keep around who have good stars/stats.

Daggers are ideal for kiling high value targets while keeping the armor intact so you can save on armor buying, namely brigand leaders and fallen heros. Later on dagger is still solid as a duelist build, although a bit situational.

[WastedTrojan]

Daggers are just for stealing equipment. When fighting a hedge knight I want his 300 armor helmet and a flail wont let me have it.