Does barbarian have any weak point?

[千仞万渊]

Or actually it's just tooooo OP?
They are giving me a same feeling as the former bounty hunters, similar fighting style, and both are too OP.


A very obvious angle, their stats and perks are super insane......I cant imagine this how bad this balance this is, havn't this been tested before?

Even the weakest thrall have 70 morale, what?? Even warlord is only 70 resolve.

And, I cant imagine reavers have insanely 11 perks, chosens have foolish 14perks......
We made some stimulation that 9 hedge knightVS 12 barbarian chosen, and the result is hedge knight never win. We cant meet more than 1 hedge knight in a combat, but it's really easy to encounter 6 chosen or even more.


In all, does barbarian have any weak point? They have many OP perks, this makes the game a total stats contest.

even reaver have:
1.Underdog+15melee defense=invinsible in melee
2.Anticipation+10 range defense=hard to counter with range weapon
3.wait turn+resilience+adrenaline=immune to any negative buff as any buff would be offset as they wait turn, even 2turn or mutiple turn effect will make no effect as resilience reduce them to 1turn duration
4.The babarian fury(roation)+adrenaline=they cant be seperated, anyone in the line would be 1vs1 solo and they have underdog, hehe(their rotation only cost 5fatigue that's funny)


And chosen get additional cripple strike+executionor.....like what the old bounty hunters do.





So, I've tryed every method, and find there is only one weak point, yes, they are afraid of super warrior, afraid of thoes who have astronomical stats. As what I said, totally stats contest.

Here are my suggestion,
1.remove underdog, actually we could remove the underdog perk as their is no mean to counter this thing.
2.make their fury skill(rotation)cost 50 fatigue, yes, 50 fatigue, not 5.
3.Nerf the whole 2h cleaver kind, not only barbarian kind. Its stats and decapte skill(now cost 20 fatigue,) makes 1h cleaver not a bit competative.
4.Remove resilience and recovery, that's very important, or how can we counter adrenaline.


Another thing:
5. Nerf indomitable or directly remove it, it's another perk that's cant be countered unless you are a super warrior(like underdog), what can you do to a wait-turned opponent with indomitalble , adrenaline and resilience? Stun? Poison? Disarm? That's all of no use, as they all would be neutralized by the end of this turn. The only way is to let a adrenaline user who have higher initiative than your opponent and stagger him. But how can you have higher initiative than you enemy? For example barbarian chosen have 115 intiative and champion will offer another 25% that's to say, 140 intiative, foolish.

[Wyrtt]

I trust this guy feedback more than people complaining about rng rolls.

[The Duck Knight]

I don't know how often I already said that in this forum....and I since I could not test it myself, I add the possibility of it not working, but here it is:

The answer could be nets.

nets seem to nearly always be the answer.

Goblin shaman/overseer or ancient priests are annoying you? net them
Swordmaster keeps getting not hit? Net him.
Ancient undead formation attack keeps getting you down? Use nets to mess their formation.

Somehow...I thing nets might also be the answer to barbarians. I see a pattern there.

[cicoles]

How many thralls were you fighting?
I encountered 6 of them early in my Lone Wolf start, during a caravan mission. I was thinking that I'll definately die because I only had 5 other low level brothers, the brothers were in the level 3-5 range. But it turned out to be managable.

[千仞万渊]

Originally posted by The Duck Knight:

I don't know how often I already said that in this forum....and I since I could not test it myself, I add the possibility of it not working, but here it is:

The answer could be nets.

nets seem to nearly always be the answer.

Goblin shaman/overseer or ancient priests are annoying you? net them
Swordmaster keeps getting not hit? Net him.
Ancient undead formation attack keeps getting you down? Use nets to mess their formation.

Somehow...I thing nets might also be the answer to barbarians. I see a pattern there.

I certainly know net, but it's unuseful, many reasons.
Make it short, You just cant simply use negative effect to counter adrenaline.

[The Duck Knight]

Originally posted by 千仞万渊:

Originally posted by The Duck Knight:

I don't know how often I already said that in this forum....and I since I could not test it myself, I add the possibility of it not working, but here it is:

The answer could be nets.

nets seem to nearly always be the answer.

Goblin shaman/overseer or ancient priests are annoying you? net them
Swordmaster keeps getting not hit? Net him.
Ancient undead formation attack keeps getting you down? Use nets to mess their formation.

Somehow...I thing nets might also be the answer to barbarians. I see a pattern there.

I certainly know net, but it's unuseful, many reasons.
Make it short, You just cant simply use negative effect to counter adrenaline.

maybe in combination with stun?
stun them AND net them?
acting at last might take the stun away, but the net still needs to be broken.

[suejak]

LOL what is this whiny ragequit post :D

I never thought I'd see difficulty whine from Flickering outside of bounty hunters ;)

Oh, and spiders. Yes, on the Discord, Flickering once declared spiders too strong. He was using double-grip flails and stuff against them, I don't know. It was weird.

Oh, and any archers. Literally all archers are OP. And he goes double-grip against them, without picking Dodge or Anticipation.

Oh, and like 11 t1 nach is OP early, even if you have 12 guys.

OK so maybe you whine a lot

Anyway, overall, it's hard to make an AI enemy that is challenging to intelligent players like yourself in the post-midgame, which probably explains their perks and stats :)

Barbs are supposed to be a tough enemy. The thralls quickly stop being threatening and the reavers, though very strong, are not terrifying post-midgame. The chosen are quite threatening even through late game, and this is apparently on purpose.

Overall, they are *supposed* to be post-orc in difficulty. Orcs are, in a sense, too easy with their bad morale and slow style. Many people fight big orc camps very early with level 6-7 guys. Barbs are supposed to be challenging through to the late game -- as you say, they are weak to high-level mercs.

Also, what you say about the edge knights is apparently intended. Somebody mentioned that you only see one edge knight at a time in battle, so why multiple chosen? The response to this was to lower the number of chosen from "plethora" to "lots": yes, you used to come across camps with *plethoras of chosen* on like day 20. I think the current level is pretty reasonable.

As for tips, I do think the ability for them to be stunned, disabled, staggered, and moved around makes them easier than orcs in that regard. Duck Knight is on the right track IMO. They are still a terrifying opponent but they have human weaknesses.

Also, keep in mind that non-chosen barbs rely on fatigue for Dodge, so they get much easier to hit after each use of Adrenaline.

I like the suggestion to increase their Rotation skill's fatigue cost, though, as I think the barbs should get noticeably tired from ability spam.

[Lampros]

Originally posted by Wyrtt:

I trust this guy feedback more than people complaining about rng rolls.

He's a great player, but I trust his feedback about as much as the guy who started his first game today. He will claim "OP" about anything he can't beat with trash level 1 team.

[Darc]

In my lone wolf run i took on 9 thralls without a 2nd thought but later on 7 reavers were tearing up my bros armor and causing injuries.

[Lampros]

Originally posted by Darc:

In my lone wolf run i took on 9 thralls without a 2nd thought but later on 7 reavers were tearing up my bros armor and causing injuries.

How many brothers were you using against 7 Reavers?

[千仞万渊]

Originally posted by Lampros:

Originally posted by Wyrtt:

I trust this guy feedback more than people complaining about rng rolls.

He's a great player, but I trust his feedback about as much as the guy who started his first game today. He will claim "OP" about anything he can't beat with trash level 1 team.

Yes, that''s the point, the game's scaling is always bad, they tend to give your lv1 team a impossible contract.

Like I get a 2 skull village contract, 1200C, only day 32 and they ask me to destroy a savage camp with 8reaver+4chosen, actually only 1 chosen destroy my whole team cause I cant even make a hit

That's the same for enemy archers.
It's not archers too OP, it's their rating is too low. They emerge from day 5 when you are only using thug gear. There are many times there is no easy contract when the scaling comes to a bad point.

[msunavygrad]

Originally posted by 千仞万渊:

Originally posted by Lampros:

He's a great player, but I trust his feedback about as much as the guy who started his first game today. He will claim "OP" about anything he can't beat with trash level 1 team.

Yes, that''s the point, the game's scaling is always bad, they tend to give your lv1 team a impossible contract.

Like I get a 2 skull village contract, 1200C, only day 32 and they ask me to destroy a savage camp with 8reaver+4chosen, actually only 1 chosen destroy my whole team cause I cant even make a hit

That's the same for enemy archers.
It's not archers too OP, it's their rating is too low. They emerge from day 5 when you are only using thug gear. There are many times there is no easy contract when the scaling comes to a bad point.

The 1200 Crowns should have alerted you that this contract was harder than advertised. You have played long enough to know that the sculls only tell part of the difficulty story, the Crowns tell the rest.

[千仞万渊]

Originally posted by suejak:

You should have read my post carefully.

Maybe you dont know how to use adrenaline efficently, actually so does AI. But they sometime do well by accident or random AI factor.

As I have said.

How to use adrenalline to negate negative effect/state

Effect：Stun/Staggered/Dazed/Poisoned/Charmed/Swarm/Disarm These effect are counted by individual turn not absolute turn. They get duration -1 when you end your turn，that's to say:
If you dont end your individual turn but use wait turn order even if you only have 0AP-----and then receive any negative effect-------then you end your turn, any effect you receive will get -1 duration. And if no new incoming negative effect or you are the slowest in turn order then all effect is removed if you have resilience to reduce them to only 1 turn duration.

And here are some build or usage based on this mechanic you may once heard or maybe not. We call that initiative overwhelming /initiative inhibition tactic.

1.Adrenaline+recovery loop, you always occupy the fastest and lowest order in 2 consequential turns. That's firstly used by some players in china community in lonewolf shield tank(riposte) and lonewolf axe super warrior.

2.Adrenaline+resilience+wait turn: I have already explained the mechanic, in all you can use this combo to gain an ability to be immune to hexen's charm.


And unfortunately, barbarian have both adrenaline and resilience, so that's to say, they are immune to any negative effect if they want to. And similar reason if they wait turn with AP reserved(they always do, as they use those AP to travel at the end of turn), net is of no use.






PS:For anyone who dont know why adrenaline plays a role in the thing:
Wait turn order will cause you to reduced 25% initiative when deciding turn order, so in the past AI seldom wait and I think it's rational.

But if you use adrenaline, this is not a trouble, also the high cost is of course not a problem for barbarian with 140 fatigue , 20recover rate and recover perk.

[千仞万渊]

Originally posted by msunavygrad:

The 1200 Crowns should have alerted you that this contract was harder than advertised. You have played long enough to know that the sculls only tell part of the difficulty story, the Crowns tell the rest.

Yes, I just finished a 3skull orc contract, 2800C, 5orc young+6 orc warrior, not really easy, but pretty doable.

Maybe 5orc young+6 orc warrior is supposed to be 2 times stronger than 8reaver+4chosen?

I dont think so, on the controry, I think 8 reaver+4chosen is 2 times stronger. We can make a stimulation and the result is very clear.

Funny thing is, even thrall have high moral than orc warrior.

[Caledor]

I had 2 fights against barbarians. I have beat them both times. In one fight i lost 2 men. They have too many twohanders. This makes the risk very high, but the reward for killing them is very low. I will avoid them in the future.

[msunavygrad]

Originally posted by Caledor:

I had 2 fights against barbarians. I have beat them both times. In one fight i lost 2 men. They have too many twohanders. This makes the risk very high, but the reward for killing them is very low. I will avoid them in the future.

I know folks don't like Spears and Spear Wall, but the are very effective vs Barbarians