A arguement for Steel Brow.

[feeWAIVER]

Steel Brow is an unpopular perk, so I decided to make a couple builds that use it.

Both are nimble, and they wear witch hunter hats (40 armor 0 fatigue), which frees fatigue up to use stronger body armor.

One is a Spearman Nimble Tank with a 2h spear and Footwork (which is a seperate experiment altogether), and the other a straight melee bro with a famed warbrand and a side whip.

So far, they've only been hit in the head twice. Both times by Ancient pikemen. Both times, the hit completely removed the hat, and took about 10% of their health.

So it seems like a pretty good safeguard against random and unlikely headshots, while having zero fatigue 40 armor on the head.

Bonus points because you look awesome with a witch hunter hat and dire wolf furs.

[The Duck Knight]

it is not useless, you are right. BUT in most times you could just wear a good headpiece and pick a simple better perk.

for nimble builds, it's an option if you want to spare fatigue for headgear, but that is all.

[turtle225]

It's unpopular because it is weak.

This has been tested before. 40/160 (hat/armor) with Brow is worse than 120/95 without Brow.

Especially with Nimble, Brow is mediocre. Gifted +5 hp (Colossus assumed) is better, and that doesn't even count Gifted's other benefits.

[feeWAIVER]

Originally posted by turtle225:

It's unpopular because it is weak.

This has been tested before. 40/160 (hat/armor) with Brow is worse than 120/95 without Brow.

Especially with Nimble, Brow is mediocre. Gifted +5 hp (Colossus assumed) is better, and that doesn't even count Gifted's other benefits.

Can you elaborate on this test?
I respect what your saying, and I know you know what your talking about, but that looks like nonsense.

[turtle225]

You can test it pretty easily with Wall's calculator.

https://wlirareddit.github.io/bb_calculator/

Tests of Ancient Bladed Pike vs 40/160 Nimble and 120/95 Nimble. Gifted is just +5 HP (Colossus assumed). Score is average # of hits survived. First value is with no attachment. Second value is with Bone Plates. Asterisk denotes winning option.

-- 80HP --
40/160: -------- 3.66 --- 4.48
40/160 Brow: 3.95 --- 4.91
40/160 Gifted: 3.85 --- 4.65
120/95: -------- 3.73 --- 4.73
120/95 Brow: 3.90 --- 4.96
120/95 Gifted: 4.00*-- 4.98*

-- 100HP --
40/160: -------- 4.27 --- 5.1
40/160 Brow: 4.56 --- 5.53
40/160 Gifted: 4.47 --- 5.31
120/95: -------- 4.59 --- 5.56
120/95 Brow: 4.72*-- 5.76*
120/95 Gifted: 4.72*-- 5.69

-- 120HP --
40/160: -------- 5.01 --- 5.87
40/160 Brow: 5.32 --- 6.30
40/160 Gifted: 5.16 --- 6.02
120/95: -------- 5.37 --- 6.32
120/95 Brow: 5.65*-- 6.69*
120/95 Gifted: 5.53 --- 6.48

Conclusions.
- 40/160 line is never the best option with no perks or with a perk.
- In the 100 and 120 HP brackets, 40/160 Brow is worse than 120/95 with no perk.
- Even if you like Brow, you are better off with 120/95 set.
- Brow starts to beat Gifted's 5 hp once you get a high hp count, but this still doesn't count for Gifted's other boosts.

And if you aren't tired of my pedantic droning yet. Further reading here.

https://steamcommunity.com/app/365360/discussions/0/1644292549032219862/

[feeWAIVER]

Originally posted by turtle225:

You can test it pretty easily with Wall's calculator.

https://wlirareddit.github.io/bb_calculator/

Tests of Ancient Bladed Pike vs 40/160 Nimble and 120/95 Nimble. Gifted is just +5 HP (Colossus assumed). Score is average # of hits survived. First value is with no attachment. Second value is with Bone Plates. Asterisk denotes winning option.

-- 80HP --
40/160: -------- 3.66 --- 4.48
40/160 Brow: 3.95 --- 4.91
40/160 Gifted: 3.85 --- 4.65
120/95: -------- 3.73 --- 4.73
120/95 Brow: 3.90 --- 4.96
120/95 Gifted: 4.00*-- 4.98*

-- 100HP --
40/160: -------- 4.27 --- 5.1
40/160 Brow: 4.56 --- 5.53
40/160 Gifted: 4.47 --- 5.31
120/95: -------- 4.59 --- 5.56
120/95 Brow: 4.72*-- 5.76*
120/95 Gifted: 4.72*-- 5.69

-- 120HP --
40/160: -------- 5.01 --- 5.87
40/160 Brow: 5.32 --- 6.30
40/160 Gifted: 5.16 --- 6.02
120/95: -------- 5.37 --- 6.32
120/95 Brow: 5.65*-- 6.69*
120/95 Gifted: 5.53 --- 6.48

Conclusions.
- 40/160 line is never the best option with no perks or with a perk.
- In the 100 and 120 HP brackets, 40/160 Brow is worse than 120/95 with no perk.
- Even if you like Brow, you are better off with 120/95 set.
- Brow starts to beat Gifted's 5 hp once you get a high hp count, but this still doesn't count for Gifted's other boosts.

And if you aren't tired of my pedantic droning yet. Further reading here.

https://steamcommunity.com/app/365360/discussions/0/1644292549032219862/

Looking at the calculator, the standard deviation is greater than the difference.
I can't wrap my brain around why having almost double the body armor is worse, when 75% of attacks hit body.

[turtle225]

If you are testing Calcs, remember Bladed Pike has 30% headshot chance.

For good measure let's try Felix's calculator. This one doesn't have Bone Plates though.

http://bbbros.herokuapp.com/

Most of these are about .8 higher than in Wall's calcualor and I'm not entirely sure why unless this is showing that you will die in (value) hits on average whereas in Wall's calculator is that you will survive (value) hits. Alternatively, one or both of the calculators is fundamentally flawed which would be pretty annoying.

-- 80HP --
40/160: -------- 4.39
40/160 Brow: 4.91*
40/160 Gifted: 4.55
120/95: -------- 4.40
120/95 Brow: 4.67
120/95 Gifted: 4.60

-- 100HP --
40/160: -------- 5.07
40/160 Brow: 5.69*
40/160 Gifted: 5.24
120/95: -------- 5.17
120/95 Brow: 5.49
120/95 Gifted: 5.35

-- 120HP --
40/160: -------- 5.77
40/160 Brow: 6.47*
40/160 Gifted: 5.94
120/95: -------- 5.90
120/95 Brow: 6.31
120/95 Gifted: 6.08

Conclusions based on this set.
- 40/160 line is the best option if you want to devote a perk on Brow.
- If not using Brow then avoid 40/160. That's not very surprising.
- Gifted 5 HP doesn't fair as well in this data set, but it is hard to quantify Gifted's other value. Even one extra dodge from +3 defense will outpace Brow.

Other thoughts.
I don't know the backend to these calculators. The two calculators tell a different story. The BB damage formula is quite complex and it is entirely possible that one or both calculators could be flawed. It is easy to lie with statistics and that is never my intent. If you guys have insight on which is more likely to be accurate then please enlighten me so that I don't accidentally lie to people when I'm calc mongering. If someone knows of a third calculator point me to it and I might take the time to see how it compares.

Personally, even going off of Felix's dataset, I would rather take Gifted than Brow. But his data suggests that the 40/160 Brow set has some merit.

[Darkfireslide]

Steel Brow should give Stun resist/immunity. That would make it worth taking sometimes on tanks.

[w.f.schepel]

FWIW, I am quite happy with steel brow on my archers. No more sudden deaths from stupid lucky hits.Tried nimble archers first but I vastly prefer armoured ones with bone plating added on top. You just can't put much in the way of a helmet on them without losing vision, so steel brow was my solution.

My tanks simply get big helmets. I don't think I got nearly as much value out of steel brow there, but early game, it is a nice perk to have against 2H stuff. Since you are going to rotate those early guys out anyway, I believe that you shouldn't look for long term perfect builds but rather short term gain.

[feeWAIVER]

So as an update to my findings on this-
My 2h Spear Steel Brow Indom Nimble Tank has held up pretty well.
His 2 hand spearwall can chunk enemies. He is high initiative, and I push him forward.
He has foot work to step back and reset his spear.

There's been a couple times where he's been blown out, I had to rotate him to the back line, but then he has reach with 2h spear- so he can keep fighting and it's not that bad.

I have 2 conventional main tanks, and he is just a 3rd to help direct traffic, but he's pretty good!

[turtle225]

Originally posted by w.f.schepel:

FWIW, I am quite happy with steel brow on my archers. No more sudden deaths from stupid lucky hits.Tried nimble archers first but I vastly prefer armoured ones with bone plating added on top. You just can't put much in the way of a helmet on them without losing vision, so steel brow was my solution.

Or you could just use Nimble and normal armor and have a bunch of extra Fatigue.

I find it odd how you tried Nimble archers and weren't satisfied? They should almost never be taking damage in the first place. Nimble and basic Raider armor is enough to shrug the few bolts or arrows that pass through the line. Nimble is the only defensive perk I use at all on my range units. No Footwork, no Anticipation, no Dodge, no Brow, etc. Now I'm not saying you need to be that aggressive, but skipping Nimble and using Brow makes no sense. Are you using 300 body armor? Because even a low Nimble value like 80% would still be better than Brow. Colossus is better than Brow.

You said you didn't want sudden deaths from lucky hits. But that's exactly what Nimble provides. Guarantee that you can take a bunch of hits.

[w.f.schepel]

Originally posted by turtle225:

Originally posted by w.f.schepel:

FWIW, I am quite happy with steel brow on my archers. No more sudden deaths from stupid lucky hits.Tried nimble archers first but I vastly prefer armoured ones with bone plating added on top. You just can't put much in the way of a helmet on them without losing vision, so steel brow was my solution.

Or you could just use Nimble and normal armor and have a bunch of extra Fatigue.

I find it odd how you tried Nimble archers and weren't satisfied? They should almost never be taking damage in the first place. Nimble and basic Raider armor is enough to shrug the few bolts or arrows that pass through the line. Nimble is the only defensive perk I use at all on my range units. No Footwork, no Anticipation, no Dodge, no Brow, etc. Now I'm not saying you need to be that aggressive, but skipping Nimble and using Brow makes no sense. Are you using 300 body armor? Because even a low Nimble value like 80% would still be better than Brow. Colossus is better than Brow.

You said you didn't want sudden deaths from lucky hits. But that's exactly what Nimble provides. Guarantee that you can take a bunch of hits.

I use colossus as well. Standard first pick on everybody. My main intent is to keep everybody alive. Nimble doesn't do that much against headshots. In fact, it is the way I deal with swordmasters: pew, pew, pew, dead. Given that I use crossbows (spiked impalers) I need to be close. Also, given that in a number of fights you get surrounded very easily, I switched to armour over dodge/nimble. It works like a charm for me. My crossbowmen double as pikemen and sometimes I use them to rotate frontliners out if they start to look a bit worse for wear. Been walking all over necrosavants this way. They were previously the bane of my existence. I am sure the spreadsheets don't agree with me, but this works.

[turtle225]

Originally posted by w.f.schepel:

I use colossus as well. Standard first pick on everybody. My main intent is to keep everybody alive. Nimble doesn't do that much against headshots.

You are mistaken. Nimble makes you take only 40% damage. On a very simple level a headshot does 150% damage. 150% * 40% is 60% damage from headshots to a Nimble bro. Brow takes 100% damage from headshots.

Nimble also has the benefit of reducing your body damage taken which Brow of course doesn't.

160 Hat is as high as you can go for Xbow without vision penalty. Pair that with Noble Mail (160) and you have 50% Nimble which is still only 75% damage from headshots.

If you use Scale Armor (240) which is about as high as you can go and still get Nimble value. You will be at 76% Nimble which would take 114% damage from headshots but only 76% from the far more common body shots.

I'm sorry but I can't imagine a line where Brow is superior to Nimble on a range unit. Nimble is one of the best perks in the game and Brow is one of the weakest.

Necrosavants will eat Nimble up if your defense isn't great but archers shouldn't be fielded against Necrosavants anyway or if you have to put them in they should bring along a Heater Shield in the pack just in case and be in the interior of the formation for safety.

Edit: For reference, 80% Nimble is equal to Colossus (except for the purpose of Bleed/Miasma). Any lower Nimble% will give more effective hp than Colossus.