Iron lung Lumberjack

[Trappist]

I seem to get more iron lung roles on Lumberjacks than any other background. Anyone else finding that or just random?

[Legas]

Nobody knows if traits are completely random or not.

I believe some backgrounds do have a higher chance to come with some traits, I hired way too many superstitious wildmen to believe otherwise, whitchhunters often have brave or fearless, and I've never seen a brave/fearless deserter.

[gazomierz]

Traits are influenced by backgrounds. I'm pretty sure it was confirmed by devs at one point. Can't find the post tho so it may be my memory failing me.

But... show me one screenshot of dastard hedge knight. I belive what Legas believes.

[Drathnar1]

Trait frequency is an interesting topic but not one that can be resolved definitively unless the devs choose to give that info out (which they won't).
If one has enough data, some analysis is possible but the sample size would need to be huge to have any predictive value.

The database compiled by Shukrat can be a good start:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1k_izGk9h9r3OMlOmnmiOwrmK7EmHu2eni08JpULf-os/edit#gid=564913014

Of the 25 Lumberjack entries there with traits there are 2 with Iron Lungs
Add 9 from me (personal data) with 0 Iron Lungs for a total of 34 samples, 2 with Iron Lungs

Next we need to look at the frequency of Iron Lungs across the backgrounds and compare whether there is a statistically significant increase. As data for some backgrounds are quite sparse, and the incidence for Lumberjacks is low (2/34), I do not believe we can confidently predict at this point. Now if everyone chipped in and provided their hires to the database, that might be a different matter...(hint, hint :p)


Other than database wrangling, we'll just have to go with whatever little snippets of info the devs provide.
I vaguely recall that the devs mentioned that no character can have opposite traits as in you can't simultaneously have Iron Lungs and be Asthmatic on the same character. So I've seen Asthmatic, Fat and Fearless on Retired Soldiers. Iron Lungs so far no, but well the sample size is small.

I also vaguely recall the devs specifically scripting the initial ranged Companion to never have Drunk as a trait as that would damage his abilities a bit too much. So it's always possible they've adjusted trait frequency for each background.


@Legas:
There were no Brave or Fearless Deserters in 27 samples ((Shukrat's database plus my own).
There were 2 Dastard, 2 Insecure, 1 Craven and 1 Fainthearted cases though.

@Gazomierz:
There were no Dastard Hedge Knights recorded in 23 samples (Shukrat's database plus my own). There were 3 Bloodthirsty, 2 Deathwish, 2 Iron Lungs and 2 Determined cases though.

[gazomierz]

Originally posted by rapsdjff:

Traits are already determined by character background, and it's always been this way.

Found it! :D

Originally posted by Drathnar1:

By the way, as you praised few of my posts and I haven't really said thank you. So.. Thank you. Also, kudos for your work on gathering data. It's stuff like that that allows the community to live long and prosper.

[Estieukua]

I've definitely seen quite a few vagabonds with Iron Lungs. I think all the higher-fatigue backgrounds are more likely to have the trait than others (and I've never seen any of them with Asthmatic).

I did once get a swordmaster with Iron Lungs, however.

More recently, I got a sellsword who had both Fat and Iron Lungs.

If I was a character in the game, I'd have Irrational Lungs with +10 or -10 fatigue recovery randomly after every turn.

[Legas]

So far I've got the most iron lungs from farmhands, maybe I'm biased because I hire more farmhands than anything else, but maybe high fatigue backgrounds do have higher chance to get iron lungs.

[Trappist]

thanks for the feedback all

[Estieukua]

Originally posted by Drathnar1:

Next we need to look at the frequency of Iron Lungs across the backgrounds and compare whether there is a statistically significant increase. As data for some backgrounds are quite sparse, and the incidence for Lumberjacks is low (2/34), I do not believe we can confidently predict at this point. Now if everyone chipped in and provided their hires to the database, that might be a different matter...(hint, hint :p)

I had a few experimental hire/fire campaigns the past couple of days, looking at all traits, not just Iron Lungs. I aimed for 10 of each background, but some were scarce and I accidentally recorded an extra 1-3 cases for some other backgrounds. The samples are too small by themselves, and not all of the observations (e.g. Iron Lungs on gamblers) fit well with what I recall from thousands of past recruits, but the large majority of the data fits well with my existing perceptions when only positive/negative/mixed traits are considered. I also recorded whether a recruit had no traits, just one, or two, since omitting ones with no traits would result in thinking that the % of traits among a background is higher than is truly the case. In future, I think I'll hire more squires.

ADVENTUROUS NOBLES (7): Athletic (1), Cocky (1), Deathwish (1), Fat (1), Iron Jaw (1), Shortsighted (1), Superstitious (1), Survivor (1), No traits (2), 1 trait (2), 2 traits (3), positive traits (4), negative traits (2), mixed traits (2).

APPRENTICES (10): Clubfooted (1), Drunk (1), Eagle Eyes (2), Hesitant (1), Impatient (1), Insecure (1), Iron Jaw (1), Loyal (2), Superstitious (2), No traits (3), 1 trait (2), 2 traits (5), positive traits (6), negative traits (5), mixed traits (1).

BAS-T@RD5 (5): Athletic (1), Brute (1), Fearless (1), Impatient (1), Iron Lungs (1), Spartan (1), Survivor (1), No traits (0), 1 trait (3), 2 traits (2), positive traits (6), negative traits (0), mixed traits (1).

BEGGARS (10): Asthmatic (1), Clubfooted (2), Dextrous (1), Fainthearted (1), Gluttonous (1), Impatient (1), Insecure (1), Iron Lungs (1), Quick (2), Shortsighted (1), No traits (1), 1 trait (6), 2 traits (3), positive traits (5), negative traits (7), mixed traits (0).

BOWYERS (5): Clubfooted (1), Dastard (1), Dextrous (1), Fragile (1), Survivor (1), Tiny (1), No traits (2), 1 trait (0), 2 traits (3), positive traits (2), negative traits (3), mixed traits (1).

BRAWLERS (10): Bloodthirsty (1), Brute (2), Dextrous (1), Drunk (1), Dumb (1), Eagle Eyes (1), Impatient (1), Iron Jaw (1), Optimist (1), Strong (2), Superstitious (2), Tough (1), No traits (0), 1 trait (5), 2 traits (5), positive traits (9), negative traits (3), mixed traits (3).

BUTCHERS (6): Bloodthirsty (2), Clubfooted (1), Drunk (1), Irrational (1), Loyal (1), Quick (2), Superstitious (1), Tough (1), No traits (0), 1 trait (2), 2 traits (4), positive traits (6), negative traits (2), mixed traits (2).

CARAVAN HANDS (10): Brave (1), Craven (1), Deathwish (1), Disloyal (1), Fainthearted (1), Fragile (1), Insecure (1), Irrational (1), Pessimist (1), Surefooted (1), Survivor (1), No traits (1), 1 trait (6), 2 traits (3), positive traits (4), negative traits (6), mixed traits (1).

CRIPPLES (5): Bloodthirsty (1), Bright (1), No traits (3), 1 trait (2), 2 traits (0), positive traits (2), negative traits (0), mixed traits (0).

CULTISTS (4): Bloodthirsty (1), Deathwish (1), Iron Jaw (1), Surefooted (1), No traits (1), 1 trait (2), 2 traits (1), positive traits (4), negative traits (0), mixed traits (0).

DAYTALERS (11): Brave (1), Bright (1), Craven (1), Dextrous (1), Disloyal (1), Dumb (1), Fearless (1), Hesitant (1), Iron Jaw (1), Strong (1), Surefooted (1), No traits (3), 1 trait (5), 2 traits (3), positive traits (7), negative traits (4), mixed traits (0).

DESERTERS (10): Athletic (1), Bleeder (1), Bright (1), Brute (1), Clumsy (1), Drunk (1), Eagle Eye (1), Gluttonous (1), Hesitant (1), Insecure (1), Spartan (1), Strong (1), Superstitious (1), Survivor (1), Tough (1), No traits (0), 1 trait (5), 2 traits (5), positive traits (7), negative traits (6), mixed traits (2).

DISOWNED NOBLES (4): Asthmatic (1), Eagle Eyes (1), Fat (1), Hesitant (1), Loyal (1), No traits (0), 1 trait (3), 2 traits (1), positive traits (2), negative traits (2), mixed traits (1).

EUNUCHS (6): Drunk (1), Fainthearted (1), Fragile (1), Hesitant (1), Insecure (1), Optimist (1), Pessimist (1), Spartan (1), Strong (1), Surefooted (1), No traits (0), 1 trait (2), 2 traits (4), positive traits (4), negative traits (5), mixed traits (1).

FARMHANDS (13): Brute (1), Craven (2), Deathwish (1), Drunk (1), Eagle Eyes (1), Fat (1), Glutton (1), Greedy (1), Insecure (1), Loyal (1), Iron Lungs (1), Strong (1), Superstitious (1), Surefooted (2), No traits (1), 1 trait (8), 2 traits (4), positive traits (7), negative traits (5), mixed traits (3).

FISHERMEN (10): Bloodthirsty (1), Bright (1), Cocky (1), Deathwish (2), Dumb (2), Eagle Eyes (1), Quick (1), Shortsighted (2), Superstitious (1), No traits (2), 1 trait (4), 2 traits (4), positive traits (6), negative traits (5), mixed traits (1).

FLAGELLANTS (6): Asthmatic (1), Dastard (1), Deathwish (1), Eagle Eyes (1), Irrational (1), Optimist (1), Quick (1), Surefooted (1), Survivor (1), No traits (0), 1 trait (3), 2 traits (3), positive traits (6), negative traits (2), mixed traits (1).

GAMBLERS (12): Bleeder (1), Cocky (1), Dextrous (1), Drunk (1), Impatient (1), Iron Lungs (2), Quick (1), Survivor (2), Tiny (2), No traits (3), 1 trait (6), 2 traits (3), positive traits (7), negative traits (1), mixed traits (4). NOTE: the two with Iron Lungs are probably the ONLY two gamblers with that trait (out of thousands) that I've ever recruited.

GRAVEDIGGERS (4): Clubfooted (1), Disloyal (1), Eagle Eyes (1), Glutton (2), Irrational (1), Superstitious (1), Tiny (1), No traits (0), 1 trait (0), 2 traits (4), positive traits (1), negative traits (5), mixed traits (2).

GRAVEROBBERS (8): Athletic (1), Bleeder (1), Clumsy (1), Dastard (1), Disloyal (1), Drunk (1), Dumb (2), Eagle Eyes (1), Fragile (1), Glutton (1), Shortsighted (1), Tough (1), No traits (0), 1 trait (2), 2 traits (6), positive traits (3), negative traits (9), mixed traits (1).

HEDGE KNIGHTS (6): Deathwish (1), Determined (1), Dextrous (1), Drunk (3), No traits (2), 1 trait (2), 2 traits (2), positive traits (3), negative traits (0), mixed traits (3). ANYTHING BEGINNING WITH D-!

HISTORIANS (1): Greedy (1), No traits (0), 1 trait (1), 2 traits (0), positive traits (0), negative traits (1), mixed traits (0).

HOUNDMASTERS (5): Brave (1), Craven (1), Determined (1), Shortsighted (1), No traits (2), 1 trait (2), 2 traits (1), positive traits (2), negative traits (2), mixed traits (0).

HUNTERS (11): Bleeder (2), Bright (2), Determined (1), Dextrous (1), Disloyal (1), Impatient (1), Insecure (1), Irrational (1), Pessimistic (1), Quick (1), Strong (2), Survivor (1), Tiny (1), No traits (0), 1 trait (6), 2 traits (5), positive traits (9), negative traits (5), mixed traits (2).

JUGGLERS (8): Brave (1), Disloyal (1), Fainthearted (1), Fat (2), Fearless (1), Greedy (1), Loyal (1), No traits (2), 1 trait (4), 2 traits (2), positive traits (3), negative traits (3), mixed traits (2).

KILLERS (5): Bleeder (1), Dextrous (1), Drunk (1), Fat (1), Glutton (1), Insecure (1), Iron Lungs (1), Quick (1), Strong (1), Tough (1), No traits (0), 1 trait (0), 2 traits (5), positive traits (5), negative traits (3), mixed traits (2).

LUMBERJACKS (5): Brute (1), Loyal (1), Shortsighted (1), Survivor (1), No traits (2), 1 trait (2), 2 traits (1), positive traits (2), negative traits (1), mixed traits (1).

MASONS (9): Bleeder (1), Cocky (1), Determined (1), Disloyal (1), Fainthearted (1), Fat (3), Fearless (1), Impatient (1), Iron Jaw (1), Irrational (1), Superstitious (1), No traits (1), 1 trait (3), 2 traits (5), positive traits (4), negative traits (4), mixed traits (5).

MESSENGERS (7): Bleeder (1), Bloodthirsty (1), Dextrous (1), Fearless (1), Fragile (1), Iron Jaw (2), Optimist (1), Pessimist (1), Tiny (2), No traits (0), 1 trait (3), 2 traits (4), positive traits (6), negative traits (3), mixed traits (2).

MILITIA (10): Brave (1), Bright (1), Dextrous (1), Disloyal (1), Drunk (1), Eagle Eyes (2), Fainthearted (1), Fearless (1), Greedy (1), Loyal (2), Optimist (1), Tiny (1), Tough (1), No traits (2), 1 trait (1), 2 traits (7), positive traits (10), negative traits (3), mixed traits (2).

MILLERS (10): Asthmatic (1), Bleeder (1), Clumsy (1), Craven (2), Disloyal (1), Hesitant (1), Insecure (2), Iron Lungs (1), Irrational (1), Spartan (1), Survivor (1), No traits (1), 1 trait (5), 2 traits (4), positive traits (3), negative traits (9), mixed traits (1).

MINERS (10): Asthmatic (1), Bleeder (1), Dextrous (1), Dumb (1), Fainthearted (2), Insecure (1), Irrational (1), Optimistic (1), Quick (1), Shortsighted (1), Tiny (1), No traits (1), 1 trait (6), 2 traits (3), positive traits (3), negative traits (7), mixed traits (2).

MINSTRELS (1): Disloyal (1), No traits (0), 1 trait (1), 2 traits (0), positive traits (0), negative traits (1), mixed traits (0).

MONKS (10): Athletic (1), Determined (1), Fainthearted (1), Iron Jaw (1), Loyal (2), Optimist (1), Shortsighted (1), Strong (1), Survivor (1), Tiny (1), No traits (2), 1 trait (5), 2 traits (3), positive traits (8), negative traits (2), mixed traits (1).

PEDDLARS (10): Asthmatic (1), Bright (1), Dastard (1), Disloyal (1), Fainthearted (1), Greedy (1), Hesitant (1), Impatient (1), Irrational (1), Optimistic (1), Pessimistic (1), Quick (1), Shortsighted (1), Survivor (1), No traits (1), 1 trait (4), 2 traits (5), positive traits (5), negative traits (8), mixed traits (1).

POACHERS (8): Clumsy (1), Cocky (1), Dumb (1), Fainthearted (1), Iron Jaw (1), Quick (1), Spartan (1), Survivor (1), No traits (1), 1 trait (6), 2 traits (1), positive traits (4), negative traits (3), mixed traits (1).

RAIDERS (8): Athletic (2), Deathwish (2), Impatient (2), Quick (1), Shortsighted (1), Spartan (1), Strong (1), Superstitious (1), No traits (1), 1 trait (3), 2 traits (4), positive traits (9), negative traits (2), mixed traits (0).

RAT-CATCHERS (10): Asthmatic (2), Athletic (1), Dextrous (1), Drunk (1), Glutton (1), Impatient (1), Irrational (1), Optimistic (1), Spartan (1), Survivor (2), No traits (1), 1 trait (6), 2 traits (3), positive traits (7), negative traits (3), mixed traits (2).

REFUGEES (3): Clumsy (1), Eagle Eyes (1), Fainthearted (1), Iron Lungs (1), No traits (0), 1 trait (2), 2 traits (1), positive traits (2), negative traits (2), mixed traits (0).

RETIRED SOLDIERS (10): Asthmatic (1), Brute (1), Cocky (2), Fat (1), Fearless (1), Greedy (1), Iron Jaw (1), Quick (1), Superstitious (2), Survivor (1), No traits (3), 1 trait (2), 2 traits (5), positive traits (4), negative traits (4), mixed traits (4).

SELLSWORDS (10): Bloodthirsty (1), Cocky (1), Greedy (2), Quick (1), Shortsighted (1), Strong (1), Superstitious (3), Survivor (2), No traits (1), 1 trait (6), 2 traits (3), positive traits (5), negative traits (6), mixed traits (1).

SERVANTS (7): Clubfooted (1), Dextrous (1), Dumb (1), Fainthearted (1), Irrational (1), Quick (1), Shortsighted (2), Superstitious (1), Tough (1), No traits (1), 1 trait (2), 2 traits (4), positive traits (3), negative traits (6), mixed traits (1).

SHEPHERDS (5): Bright (1), Clubfooted (1), Fat (1), Superstitious (1), No traits (2), 1 trait (2), 2 traits (1), positive traits (1), negative traits (2), mixed traits (1).

SQUIRES (8): Bright (1), Brute (1), Dextrous (1), Drunk (1), Eagle Eyes (1), Iron Lungs (2), Tiny (1), No traits (2), 1 trait (4), 2 traits (2), positive traits (5), negative traits (0), mixed traits (3).

SWORDMASTERS (4): Brave (1), Deathwish (1), Eagle Eyes (1), Fat (1), Fearless (2), Pessimist (1), No traits (0), 1 trait (1), 2 traits (3), positive traits (5), negative traits (1), mixed traits (1).

TAILORS (10): Dastard (1), Dextrous (1), Disloyal (2), Eagle Eyes (1), Fainthearted (1), Irrational (2), Loyal (1), Optimist (3), Shortsighted (1), Superstitious (1), No traits (2), 1 trait (2), 2 traits (6), positive traits (6), negative traits (6), mixed traits (2).

THIEVES (10): Brave (1), Bright (1), Cocky (1), Dastard (1), Dextrous (1), Disloyal (1), Impatient (1), Irrational (1), Quick (1), Surefooted (1), Tiny (1), No traits (2), 1 trait (5), 2 traits (3), positive traits (6), negative traits (2), mixed traits (3).

VAGABONDS (12): Bleeder (1), Bloodthirsty (3), Bright (2), Clumsy (2), Craven (1), Dastard (1), Deathwish (1), Determined (1), Fainthearted (1), Hesitant (1), Quick (1), Shortsighted (1), Spartan (1), Strong (1), Tiny (1), No traits (0), 1 trait (5), 2 traits (7), positive traits (10), negative traits (8), mixed traits (1).

WITCH-HUNTERS (10): Bloodthirsty (1), Disloyal (2), Eagle Eyes (1), Fearless (1), Loyal (1), Optimist (1), Tough (1), No traits (5), 1 trait (2), 2 traits (3), positive traits (6), negative traits (2), mixed traits (0).

WILDMEN (10): Bloodthirsty (1), Brute (2), Dextrous (1), Dumb (1), Eagle Eyes (1), Impatient (1), Iron Jaw (1), Optimist (1), Strong (2), Superstitious (2), Tough (1), No traits (1), 1 trait (5), 2 traits (4), positive traits (9), negative traits (3), mixed traits (2).

[Drathnar1]

Originally posted by gazomierz:

Also, kudos for your work on gathering data. It's stuff like that that allows the community to live long and prosper.

Thanks :) Well we all contribute in ways that we can. I appreciate that you and others have stayed to keep the home fires burning when a good number of us left for other games/other matters after 0.6. Would be a lot more difficult for returning players to get up to speed otherwise.
I doubt I will be here forever but I'm hoping to get the wiki mostly updated by Christmas sales which usually brings a fair amount of new blood. Hopefully the devs will chime in too with some news on whatever they are working on then and lift our spirits.

Originally posted by Laiseurjika:

I had a few experimental hire/fire campaigns the past couple of days, looking at all traits, not just Iron Lungs.

I'd prefer these in database format similar to Shukrat's but that's a good collection you have there too ^^
They appear quite spread out though. At least I haven't noticed a particular pattern yet.

I'll try to put mine up soon in a google doc or something similar. Maybe you can add yours directly.
One odd thing I've noticed when looking at Traits is that Fat appears to reduce Initiative by 10 as well in addition to Fatigue. If you took away entries with Fat in the Shukrat's database, the average Initiative values would be quite different. Something to take into account even though it doesn't seem too odd that a Fat person would have a harder time Dodging incoming strikes.

Originally posted by Laiseurjika:

HEDGE KNIGHTS (6): Deathwish (1), Determined (1), Dextrous (1), Drunk (3), No traits (2), 1 trait (2), 2 traits (2), positive traits (3), negative traits (0), mixed traits (3). ANYTHING BEGINNING WITH D-!

Except Dastard apparently xD

Haha, uhm well let me add a new trait - Devilishly Debonair (aka Dashingly Dapper xD).
Effect: any women combatants (of which there are currently none of course xD) who attempt to strike the Hedge Knight in melee will first need to make a Resolve check, failure of which will result in only doing half damage to the knight in the event of a hit. If they roll >30 points above their Resolve, that counts as a critical failure, whereby they will not make the strike at all but instead use all that AP to just swoon at the knight. :p


(And the above is probably proof of why Drath should NEVER be a dev xD)

[Legas]

It's no surprise fat reduces initiative by 10, that happens because anything that reduces fatigue also reduces initiative.

Same reason why strong negate the first 10 points of initiative penalty and boosts nimble in the same manner.

[Drathnar1]

Originally posted by Legas:

It's no surprise fat reduces initiative by 10, that happens because anything that reduces fatigue also reduces initiative.

Yep that's probably the case here. However as it is phrased on paper as just +10hp, -10 fatigue, the ppl who entered 'base stat data (excluding the effect of traits)' into the database hadn't accounted for it. I didn't account for it either at first when I started collecting data and I think it's worth mentioning in case people wonder why base Initiative ranges appear unusually wide.

[Estieukua]

Originally posted by Drathnar1:

I'd prefer these in database format similar to Shukrat's but that's a good collection you have there too ^^
They appear quite spread out though. At least I haven't noticed a particular pattern yet.

I'll try to put mine up soon in a google doc or something similar. Maybe you can add yours directly.

There is at least one striking trend: Greedy sellswords! I hadn't seen Shukrat's DB before, but I see that 6 Greedy sellswords are on there, as well as 3 from the 10 that I recorded (by contrast, I also saw 3 Superstitious sellswords, but Shukrat's DB has none from a larger sample).

I just scribbled my data down on a piece of paper and am not well-versed in compiling documents. Which doc did you mean when you suggested I add mine directly?

I think I might try to make-up my own doc for the data, and keep updating it periodically with new observations. Obviously it's too laborious to stop to record every instance while playing normally, but even the data from occasional phases of observation would build up eventually (and the project would fit well with my plan to maintain some specifically themed campaigns in which I recruit exclusively from just one background or a few closely related ones).

[Drathnar1]

Originally posted by Laiseurjika:

There is at least one striking trend: Greedy sellswords! I hadn't seen Shukrat's DB before, but I see that 6 Greedy sellswords are on there, as well as 3 from the 10 that I recorded (by contrast, I also saw 3 Superstitious sellswords, but Shukrat's DB has none from a larger sample).

6 out of 39, yea that's pretty heavy or add on yours for 9/49 !!
Well I don't have any issues with Sellswords being greedier than the average hire. They also have an event where they might leave the company if the player doesn't match the offer from another mercenary band so I guess it fits nicely. Greedy these days appears to increase upkeep proportionally compared to base upkeep (would be nice if you could confirm).
I know in the old days Greedy used to be a flat +2. But I've seen +1s for low upkeep men and more than +2 for Disowned Nobles.

Originally posted by Laiseurjika:

I just scribbled my data down on a piece of paper and am not well-versed in compiling documents. Which doc did you mean when you suggested I add mine directly?

Here it is since you asked:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=12t9iURegiz20IV25fH7riFqFydWmhnl8
I had wanted to put in a little more but I suppose I'll update later and put up what I already have.
Data on hiring costs and equips are also there apart from stats/traits as I wanted to get that page done up on wiki as well. I calculate base background cost as hiring cost - item cost (taken at worth). And yes I know the sample size is very small for certain backgrounds (which is why I originally wanted to wait a bit longer before I uploaded).
As usual, all contributions/discussion much appreciated.

Originally posted by Laiseurjika:

I think I might try to make-up my own doc for the data, and keep updating it periodically with new observations. Obviously it's too laborious to stop to record every instance while playing normally

Sounds good! And yes it is laborious and not terribly fun. But it's nice to have some data when you want to check something.