Why pathfinder is such a great skill.

[WarWise]

I´ve seen some people dismissing pathfinder as not such a great skill. I disagree. Its one of the best tactical perks avaiable, meaning every single merc should have it.
It not only saves fatigue, but also saves action points and allows you to always know how to move and use your mercs, in any terrain avaiable.
Some people say you should choose your fighting ground. Never fight on mountains or swamps. But we all know that is not always possible. The AI chooses the contracts and where to set them. And, after all, the terrain generation is random. Meaning that, even in plain biomes, you can still get a lot of terrain variation.

Lets look at an example to see how much the pathfinder skill can improve your odds and help in a battle.

The situation is as follow. Late game, about day 150, some maxed characters, lots of 2 handed users. Atacked a bandit outpost looking for rares and also to stop the bandid spawn. 23 enemies. Seven archers and crossbowmen, one bandit leader, one hedge knight, fourteen raiders. I have three poleaxe users, two archers, seven 2 h front fighters, mostly axes and swords

I spawn in the low ground, against a fortified enemy on high ground, with 5 more archers than I have.

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=849700572

Now, I had three options:
1) Atack moving toward the enemy on high ground, who has superior ranged troops (BAD).
2) Retreat from battle, repair the damage, then atack again, hoping for a better RNG map generation. May lose troops who get engaged with atackers (REASONABLE)
3) Move around and find better ground to fight (BEST OPTION)
4) Regret my decisions and decide to never again fight on swamps, forests, mountains or snow biomes (LAME)

No matter the option, PATHFINDER will help you. It will help you reach the higher ground, it will help you retreat, it will help you find a better situation.

I decided to use the terrain for my benefit. I started retreating toward the left side of the map until I found a suitable position. Here it is:

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=849700755

I only managed to reach this position because I wasnt engaged in the low ground, where I would have to fight or lose the engaged troops. That happens because the raiders rush toward your polearm users. As you can see, I´ve completely changed the position, ataining high ground and being able to control the choke points.

If you look to the left, you will see that two mercs were engage quite close to the low ground.

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=849700755

Now the enemy archers had to move forward, reaching the low ground. I flank through the right and engage them both with my two archers and one of my 2h axe wielding mercs.

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=849700863

Now I´ve killed most of the enemy archers, and I retreat my melee merc in the right to high ground. The enemy hedge knight engages the fight...

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=849701413

Only to die in one turn to higher ground troops, specially one with a 2h hammer.

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=849701642

Now, finishing the remaining troops:

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=849701894

No losses. Barely any damage to health or armor.

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=849702115

Now, lets look at the facts.

1) In ironman mode, you cant save before a battle (unless you save scum).
2) The terrain generation is random, meaning it can heavily favor or disfavor you.
3) Even in plains, there is still terrain high and low terrain.
4) Pathfinder heavily helps in swamps, forests, snow, and in all terrains due to height diferences, even plains.
5) Sometimes retreating is the best tactical decision, not just to prevent a loss, but also to save mercs, armor and health.
6) From all the tactical perks, no one comes close to the value of PATHFINDER.

You may tell me that I would be able to do the same without the perk. Yes, its possible. But I would probabily have way more losses, both in mercs as in damaged armor. 150 points of damage equals 10 points of tools, and takes a lot of time to repair. Make the calculation. The same with wounds.

[Muscarine]

Again, that explains why pathfinder is a good skill, but doesn't mean it's mendatory.
Also i don't mean to sound rude but considering your gear and the amount of Raiders (which represent no threat at all late game) on your screenshots, it's fair to say it's late game and this was an easy battle. Raiders are only a threat early game.
I'd have steamrolled through that, pathfinder or not.
Plus i can't help but noticed you attacked during the day. Just, why ? I mean you realize yourself armor damage is expensive, but you take on 7 marksmen during the day when you have the option to wait for nightime.

I still don't understand why you're so adamant explaining it's a mendatory skill, like people do with student and gifted. It's just not.
I've tried many early game picks, pathfinder being one, but there are simply other as much valuable options.

[Crisco]

I couldn't agree with you more. The first time I read the description of Patchfinder I instantly understood the tactical implications. It should be the first or second skill you get.

[WarWise]

Originally posted by Muscarine:

I've tried many early game picks, pathfinder being one, but there are simply other as much valuable options.

Which ones?

[Muscarine]

Well i made a whole thread about it, that one was on ironman veteran to make a point about how fast we can reach late game contrary to some popular opinions, but this is the same setup i'm currently using with great results in my ironman expert run.

http://steamcommunity.com/app/365360/discussions/0/144512942754868588/

First, i think it's a bad idea to get the same starter perks on all your units, early on i believe it's important to chose the proper starter kit depending on what recruit you get. Also why i keep repeating there are only very, very few bad recruits.

Since you're talking level 4 (student > gifted > pathfinder), i would recommend fast adaptation > crippling strikes > backstabber.
When you think about it, one miss gets you a 2-3 levels worth of melee buff, each surround gets you 2-3 levels of melee buff per adjacent unit and twice that with backstabber.
Crippling strikes helps secure extremely potent debuffs especially for hitchance weapons, a single pierced hand or cut arm for example and it's gg.
This set up i find invaluable for anyone starting with average melee skill and 0 or 1 star.
More naturally capable recruits get colossus > gifted > underdog, for example.
The only unit type where i find pathfinder almost mendatory are polearm users because they need to reposition very often.

edit - also i think it's kinda reductive to only talk about perks, because these are only part of an overall player specific strategy. Also why there are many possibilities, as long as there's planning, synergie and applied tactics.

[Crisco]

I think Muscarine has a valid point that works well with his playstyle. I would point out that I find it's very advantageous to have everyone with the pathfinder skill, it prevents straglers and grants a competitive edge in adverse terrain. I only recently started granting quick adaptation over pathfinder because as he states it is a nice bonus at 7%. Crippling strikes is nice but only if you hit, so while it's part of my usual build it's not high on my list. Backstabber I've never used nor seen the use for. It doesn't fit my fighting style and I have a set group of skills I use for my front/back line respectively and since it works for me I'd hate to have to pick something to give up just to add backstabber to the mix.

[Pringles™]

Not interested in going to minute details, but like Ive said before, pathfinder is very nice, but not mandatory for effective and very good (best?) results, as is with any perk ;)

[WarWise]

Thanks Muscarine. I´ve readed your post. You definitaly progress way faster than me. Maybe Ill have to change something to be able to take harder enemies close to the start so I can progress further and faster.

Usually I use shieldwall to protect myself and let the enemy come, but maybe a more active engagement with single targets could be better if possible. With shieldwall you can only atack once, meaning a +5 bonus from gifted would be superior to the fast adaptation.

Backstaber also, and specially good for pitchfork and polearm users.

Cripling strikes could also be very good, since injuries heavily limit oponents defense and atack ratings.

Interesting stuff to think about. Specially if these offer more or less benefits than pathfinder.

[Muscarine]

Doesn't really mean my pick is better, since you have good results like this, as long as there's a follow up and not just random perk picks and you obviously adapt your tactic and formation around using pathfinder.
There are a few really underperforming perks but overall much more options and fine tuning possibilities than what we had with the old perk tree.

[Muscarine]

Originally posted by WarWise:

Usually I use shieldwall to protect myself and let the enemy come, but maybe a more active engagement with single targets could be better if possible. With shieldwall you can only atack once, meaning a +5 bonus from gifted would be superior to the fast adaptation.

Btw, i personally rarely use shieldwall but this is a really good point

[Sir Clavius]

The pathfinder is great skill, but i dont use this skill much (only archers takes this skill in my company), because i think its a waste for me, because i can win without this skill. Its all about how do you like to play :)

[Wyrtt]

pathfinder is a very situational perk. For dedicated flanker yes for the rest of the brothers? meh.

Half of the battle is getting yourself good terrain. and if you fight in plains than perk just doesnt work.

[vanger666]

Pathfider is definitely not mandatory. I dont use it. In late game when you dont have any problems with archers it needs only to retreat but... dont you all see a number of enemies ??? If you see a BIG number - just start retreating in the very first turn. Is that so difficult and you need a special perk to understand that you wont win ?

[Off-Suit Nines]

Pathfinder is absurdly flexible. It lets you take high ground better, fight in woods, swamps, or hills better. It lets you run away faster if you have to retreat, and unless you're always fighting in pure plains(let's be real, it happens but no more than 1 in 2 or 1 in 3 battles) then you're also reducing your fatigue costs by a small but noticeable amount.

I wouldn't call it mandatory, but it's very powerful not because of it bringing a huge power spike in a specific situation, as most perks do, but rather because it provides a small buff to almost all situations.

[Scout Shine]

Convincing and well written. Thank you.

[WadeStar]

If you can avoid fighting in swamps, mountains, forests, or tundra, pathfinder isn't that useful.

But that's a pretty big if.