Seeking 2h build advice

[Whatever100500]

Got into kind of analysis paralysis with 2h builds.
I reduced list of wanted perks to 11, but can't drop a single one past that point.

2h sword build:
pathfinder recovery (+student)
steelbrow quickhands
brawny
swordmastery
reach underdog
berserk battleforged
frenzy

= total 11.

Consequences for dropping:
-pathfinder = can't properly fight outside of plains. Can't fight in swamps at all (4 ap to move). Especially bad vs tireless undead.
-recovery = shamans and huge hordes will drain fatigue to zero.
-steelbrow = headshot sudden death, despite still having tons of armor. Losing a lot of survivability.
-quickhands = getting pincushined by archers/crossbowmen due to lack of shield, not having goblin pike mobile sidearm, not having insurance defense (quickhands shield after missing with attack).
-brawny = less fatigue. Not having it has anti-synergy with quickhands, recovery, berserk, killing frenzy, reach... But recruits with 150+ natural fatigue AND Iron Lungs can kind of afford that. If I ever get such recruits.
-swordmastery = better just cut brawny. This has even worse fatigue consequences for long fights.
-reach = and it's not a 2h build anymore.
-underdog = also mandatory.
-berserk = halves attack power.
-battleforged = halves survivability.
-frenzy = loses significant part of attack power (especially part that can get right through armor due to overpowering 10% reduction). But overall is a lesser loss then berserk.

What would you drop and why?

[Mr.Toad]

I'd drop Kill frenzy and/or pathfinder, even quickhands. You can easily avoid fighting in swamps or if you have enough ranged support let the enemy come to you.
Steelbrow is probably interchangeable with ninelives or colossus.

Recovery probably wont be used in 90% of fights either. But I actually like having it around solely for goblin shamans.

[Sendos]

Drop pathfinder - be smart when fighting in forests and swamps, substitute other mercs if needed.

Drop Quickhands - stick to the 2h weapon, nothing else.

Drop Steelbrow - get a strong helmet and get more HP maintain defence stats. If you can't make up for it with stats, then I guess keep it.

Drop underdog - it does help for AoE swings, but you can also make up for this by putting 2h swordsmen on your flanks and clearing out frontline enemies, enabling your team to advance. Make sure there's a straight line for him to split through. If you really want the 2h swordsmen to draw a lot of fire, then keep it.

The rest are must-have, with mastery being replaceable with hammer and axe for the respective 2h weapons.

[Whatever100500]

Originally posted by HypnoToad:

I'd drop Kill frenzy and/or pathfinder, even quickhands. You can easily avoid fighting in swamps or if you have enough ranged support let the enemy come to you.
Steelbrow is probably interchangeable with ninelives or colossus.

Kill frenzy:
Yeah, that what it probably boils down to.

Quickhands:
Seems crucial for ranged def. Crossbows do notable health damage even on body hits in best armor. Taking Rdef directly is not really an option (and would need Anticipation anyway). Also, I just love Goblin Pike shenanigans.

Pathfinder:
What if black monolith/goblin city is in swamps? Or whatever other goodie hut I want to loot? Seems like having to pass on these is a big problem.

Steelbrow:
Even best unique helmets can't really protect from heavy crossbow bolts. 45+ damage can leak through. Leaving that weakness open kind of invalidates rest of effort that went into survivability.

[Mr.Toad]

You can resolve the quickhands/ steelbrow dilemma by taking anticipation and rdef. You can save fatigue by not carrying a shield though youll probably lose more by taking rdef.

And one thing I've learnt about killing frenzy is that it's only necessary against the most heavily armored opponents. Most enemies will die in the same number of blows against you 2-handed weapons with or without kill frenzy.
So you can absolutely afford to lose it but most people dont want to because it synergizes well with berserk.

[Whatever100500]

Originally posted by HypnoToad:

You can resolve the quickhands/ steelbrow dilemma by taking anticipation and rdef. You can save fatigue by not carrying a shield though youll probably lose more by taking rdef.

And one thing I've learnt about killing frenzy is that it's only necessary against the most heavily armored opponents. Most enemies will die in the same number of blows against you 2-handed weapons with or without kill frenzy.
So you can absolutely afford to lose it but most people dont want to because it synergizes well with berserk.

Taking Rdef directly means less Mdef or Fatigue (I mean I'll already take 3 Rdef instead of 1 Mdef, but we are not talking about such trivial cases) . Steelbrow is not only for crossbows: from what I've seen most hits that succeed at inflicting hp damage against top armored bros are head hits. Removing that factor seems important, especially since I don't invest much into hp and have no Collosus.
Also, shield costs 8 fatigue (since I'll only attack with shield in backpack) for 25 Rdef on kite. I'll probably sacrifice more fatigue trying to level same or better amount of Rdef directly.

Frenzy leads so far on the chopping block, yeah.

[tkbb_]

Originally posted by Whatever100500:

Got into kind of analysis paralysis with 2h builds.
I reduced list of wanted perks to 11, but can't drop a single one past that point.

2h sword build:
pathfinder recovery (+student)
steelbrow quickhands
brawny
swordmastery
reach underdog
berserk battleforged
frenzy

= total 11.

You start already at lvl 1 and can get only 10 perks because of this (excluding student)!

With my 2Handers i went for this:
Colossus,Gifted,Brawny,Underdog,BattleForged,ReachAdvantage,Weapon,Berserk,Frenzy
(Some options for 10th perk = Executioner,Rotation,Quickhands,Steelbrow,Pathfinder ..)

You can't have them all. :D

[calmnesss13]

That's the tricky build you have. I dunno that you want to fit into addition, but the least important are killing frenzy and underdog. You just cannot drop anything else by the reasons you have already described yourself: they will criple the playstyle you got used to

[red255]

http://steamcommunity.com/app/365360/discussions/0/135511757697546343/

was the team the other guy claimed to work.

seems better than your build at least. if you were going to quick hands carry a crossbow. not a shield. I mean I guess you could do a crossbow and a shield. but ...assuming scale mail you got like 40 fatigue from armor and helment. Brawny is going to remove 14 fatigue. is that really worth a perk? Gifted is like 5 fatigue + 3-4 melee and ranged defense. and we've thrown that out.

[Black Mirror]

2H can get toasted by archers and crossbows, in some cases you need ranged def and anticipation.

[red255]

ideally you'd fight ranged enemies at night.

you can also unleash dogs to give your guys enough time to close.

[Black Mirror]

Originally posted by red255:

ideally you'd fight ranged enemies at night.

you can also unleash dogs to give your guys enough time to close.

Its still chance based, I'm still scared of things that may happen.
In one game I attacked bandit camp on the swamps during the night, their crossbow or archer shoot my shield guy while standing in the water during the night thats like -60% to ranged skill and he still did critical dmg.

[Lord Stuffington]

What's actually the problem with ranged enemys? Get to 300/300 armor + battle forged, possibly colossus as first row perk and an occasional level up in health to reach 80-90 HP and you are totaly good. No need for shield, ranged def or steelbrow. Worst case, you get an injury after extensive focus fire but no problem pulling that one guy back and swap around with the reserve and even so he should have occupied the enemy's archers long enough to get chopping.

Newer recruits obviously need to stay in cover or walk around with a shield first but I wouldn't pick quick hands for that. Doesn't mean I wouldn't pick it for other things though like longaxe+greataxe build.

[Mr.Toad]

Originally posted by red255:

http://steamcommunity.com/app/365360/discussions/0/135511757697546343/

was the team the other guy claimed to work.

seems better than your build at least. if you were going to quick hands carry a crossbow. not a shield. I mean I guess you could do a crossbow and a shield. but ...assuming scale mail you got like 40 fatigue from armor and helment. Brawny is going to remove 14 fatigue. is that really worth a perk? Gifted is like 5 fatigue + 3-4 melee and ranged defense. and we've thrown that out.

Gifted is always only 3 melee def and ranged def, and not worthwhile in my opinion. It's just a leftover perk that existed from the days when there were no vet levels.

Brawny is definitely worth the perk. Try using any character with low operating fatigue and they quickly tire. Furthermore recovery becomes even more effective the higher your max fatigue is.

Whilst I agree quickhands is completely wasted for just a shield I understand what use it has especially when used with recovery.

You change to a shield, use recovery, and youre fairly well protected for that one turn which you didnt attack. And come the next turn you have a large pool of fatigue to wreak havoc with again.

[Mr.Toad]

Originally posted by Banjohitler:

What's actually the problem with ranged enemys? Get to 300/300 armor + battle forged, possibly colossus as first row perk and an occasional level up in health to reach 80-90 HP and you are totaly good. No need for shield, ranged def or steelbrow. Worst case, you get an injury after extensive focus fire but no problem pulling that one guy back and swap around with the reserve and even so he should have occupied the enemy's archers long enough to get chopping.

Sounds great and all but this would depend entirely how your team is built. 5 arbelesters are going to focus fire your guy with the lowest ranged def. And at 300 armor, a body shot will still hit you for 15 damage on average with their heavy xbows. And each subsequent one will do even more damage. At 3 hits he would be dead or close to dead even with 80 hp.

[Horoai]

How about this build?
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=887655582