High cost recruits not worth their price.

[Stealthkibbler]

Pretty self explanatory, if you've ever invested over 2k crowns or more into a single guy just from recruitment you eventually learn that the 2k crowns spent on him could have better been used to just buy a daytaler for 90-160 and outfit him with the same level of equipment for a much lower price which can be dipped down even more depending on whether you just outright looted the equipment from brigands; which is usually the case at that stage of the game.

Recently decided to buy an adventurous noble for around 2k crowns, he came with his own mail armor, kite shield, winged mace and nasal helmet. He lasted 3 days before a single bandit marksman with a basic crossbow killed him in 2 consecutive shots before he could even clash in the line battle.

Feels like they aren't worth the amount you're paying for them, even with the gear they come with since the stat difference between a daytaler and something like a noble barely differentiates and as pointed out by many people before, you can get ♥♥♥♥♥♥ over by 1-2 rolls on their levelups.

tl:dr
• Still subject to shoddy stat rolls
  
• Stat bonus isn't that much compared to cheap alternatives
  
• Majority of high paying roles such as swordmaster come with a penalty on their fatigue; the most important resource in combat.
  
• They often come with valuable equipment racking up their already inflated recruitment cost.
  
• While their unique events make then somewhat desirable, most the common backgrounds offer events equally beneficial.

As someone who played the heck out of Warband and the original Xcom: UFO Defence I like the disposable aspect of your company, everyone can be replaced. However in conclusion this is what your game boils down to.

1. You are either losing guys too frequently to even be able to financially support a high cost recruit.

OR

2. Your company is doing so well that you can usually just save the profits for upgrading and improving your current A-team, if one dies you can literally just replace him with a daytaler for pocket change since most his old gear would still be there.

Economically speaking there is no reason why you would ever want to buy one of these guys unless you are literally swimming in tens of thousands of crowns, but at that point you probably already have a solid team ready to counter any of the challenges the game throws at you.

[Wyrtt]

sorry 3rd level swordmaster for 4k with 70 melee and 20 melee defence is beter thatn any daytaler with 3 stars talent.
Dont lose people that often? YOu know that new retreat button doesnt kill anyone but just gives them injures?

[Stealthkibbler]

Retreating without sending your guys to the edge is literally masochism, especially if you have a large company the expenditure of medical supplies or abbey treatments will set you back so many contracts while also increasing the risk of losing your guys if you managed to get attacked while they're injured.

That 70 melee also means barely anything when he dies just as easy as any old daytaler.

[gazomierz]

Well... They are really worth their cost. They make much better mercs than your regular rubble. Even with suboptimal talents they're gonna be much more potent at lvl11+.

They are late game feature, true to that. If one really know what he's doing it is possible to use them from early game, but it's risky as hell. Generally speaking you should depend on rubbish recruits up to the point when hiring a sellsword or two isn't really a problem. As late game quests often pay 5k+ and loot you get alone is worth insane amounts of cash their cost and upkeep stops being an issue.

As to them not being required to beat end game challenges. On normal I'd agree. But on higher difficulties late game can get quite crazy. Without at least couple of prems to fill crucial roles in your band I'd argue beating endgame content would be very tricky.

[Whatever100500]

Originally posted by Wyrtt:

sorry 3rd level swordmaster for 4k with 70 melee and 20 melee defence is beter thatn any daytaler with 3 stars talent.

On average, with these stats, you are right.
But let's get best daytaler vs worst swordmaster (while still meeting the stats you quoted).

So daytaler has *** in both Melee and Melee def, while swordmaster has neither.

That means that swordmaster whose stat you quoted at 3rd level, has expected 70 + 8 * 2(avg of 1-3) 84 melee by level 11. And 20 + 8 * 2 = 36 melee def. Decent melee, good defense. But far from being exceptional or even good as far as swordmasters go.

Daytaler will get on average 35 Melee and def through leveling with ***. So he just needs starting value of 49 Melee and -2 def to be equal by lvl 11. These are very low stats even for daytalers, most are better.

Sure, *** in both Melee and Melee def is something I've never seen in practice. But talentless swordmasters are common.

[Stealthkibbler]

I did finish a noble war on a veteran ironman game somewhere around day 200, but the problem I found was that once you get to the late game, you will start getting hit hard. Which in turn can lead to your guys dying to the simplest of threats; it really racks up the difficulty and I can't imagine how much of a nightmare this much be on greenskin invasions or undead uprisings, atleast on Noble wars you're fighting on even footing against other humans.The reward for the risk of investing into something like a swordmaster might help for 1-3 contracts, but the reality behind it is that a daytaler or caravan hand could perform on that same level and when you lose them to a fight the crowns lost is much much less.

[gazomierz]

@Whatever100500
They come with plenty of sweet events tho. In case of swordmasters it's not all about stats, as stats-wise they're kinda rubbish due to extemly low hps and fatigue.

Besides it's not really fair comparison, as daytalers don't come with 3star talents that often, even more true for priority stats.

Do same math for adventurous nobles, sellswords and hedge knights. Even without considering talents. They start at stat values other backgrounds finish their progression so I don't really think there is need to, but hey :)


@Stealthkibbler
That is why you should always run couple of expendable guys, preferably with footwork and rotation. Just to save your prem guys if they're in such need. And yes, it's possible to loose couple of them during the game. But it shouldn't be that common occurance.

While caravan hand or daytaler can make very decent merc, it's nothing like fully built prem. I admit cost difference is huge. But it is well justified.

[Stealthkibbler]

The point here is survivability, sure they can have pretty nice stats and a good head start when recruited, however they die just as easily as say, a beggar or caravan hand would. Armor will only save you from so many hits by chance before a blow eventually caves their skull in.

I honestly believe their recruitment cost should lower as your renown increases, understandably as your company attracts more risky contracts and enemies people might be more inclined to join you for glory since you're more well known as a successful company.

[Whatever100500]

@gazomierz

Yes, events are something to consider too. Hiring one swordmaster just for that is not a bad idea.

As far as sellswords/etc go: Sure, average sellsword is better than average farmhand. But that's not a fair comparison. You can hire 10 farmhands for same money and leave only the best of them.

Getting talented guy from expensive background is rare. Getting at least two stars in right places (either same skill or 2 1-stars in important stats) is easy on cheap backgrounds. Often more like ** in Melee and * in Def or Fatigue.
Bonuses to skills from most expensive backgrounds seem to be up to +10-15. That's exactly as much as you can get with talents. For less hiring cost, less upkeep, and ability to filter for better traits (like Iron Lungs).

Now, I don't play Ironman and don't blind hire, so my view is skewed compared to ironman player. But I think even Ironman, mass hiring cheaper guys is overall better approach unless you swim in money. Then sure, hitting talented Hedge Knight with good traits kind of jackpot is sweet.

[gazomierz]

Originally posted by Whatever100500:

Yup, not arguing that cheap backgrounds can make decent mercs. But even if they have optimal talents they won't surpass sellswords or hedge knights, in the end. As prem background start with such huge adventage. Thing is you don't even have to be lucky with them. They'd be equal or better than lvluped rubble anyway. As long as they don't completly suck (such risk exists, sure).

In ironman it's even more true one should stick to cheap and expendable guys. Up to certain point. There comes a time when you should start training prem replacements. It comes at different time in every run, but usually it's about day 50-60 for me.

[Whatever100500]

Originally posted by gazomierz:

Yup, not arguing that cheap backgrounds can make decent mercs. But even if they have optimal talents they won't surprass sellsword or hedge knights, in the end. As prem background start with such huge adventage. Thing is you don't even have to be lucky with them. They'd be equal or better than lvluped rubble anyway. As long as they don't completly suck (such risk exists, sure).

In ironman it's even more true one should stick to cheap and expendable guys. Up to certain point. There comes a time when you should start training prem replacements. It comes at different time in every run, but usually it's about day 50-60 for me.

Top cheap guys that you can get by mass hiring won't beat top Sellswords/etc, but they do beat average expensive guy. Or at least are close enough for much less upkeep. And no money sink events that Sellswords/Hedgeknights have.

There is no reason to transition from talented farmhands/etc with 85 Melee, 30 Melee def, 140 Fatigue (all stats at 11, these are not absolute top values, just very good ) to more expensive guy with about the same potential stats.

Now If you get *** talented Sellsword, that can get 100-105 Melee and 40-45 Def, while maintaining decent values in other stats, that's worth hiring. But exceedingly rare.

[gazomierz]

Their potential is the reason, that's the thing :)

[Whatever100500]

Originally posted by gazomierz:

Their potential is the reason, that's the thing :)

Sure, if you play Ironman, and have money you can afford to lose. But only after main roster is filled with solid cheap background bros.

[gazomierz]

Originally posted by Whatever100500:

Originally posted by gazomierz:

They are late game feature, true to that. If one really know what he's doing it is possible to use them from early game, but it's risky as hell. Generally speaking you should depend on rubbish recruits up to the point when hiring a sellsword or two isn't really a problem. As late game quests often pay 5k+ and loot you get alone is worth insane amounts of cash their cost and upkeep stops being an issue.

:)

[Realm]

I've gotten more value and survivability out of a Swordmaster with 2 star Melee Defense that I have with any other recruit in my company, so the 7k crowns I put out on that bargain was certainly worthwhile. He might not have the 3* Fatigue and 3* Melee Skill of my more recently recruited Wildman, but at the same time he's much more liable to survive and reach his full potential than said Wildman.

The starting stats, free levels, and potential of the higher end backgrounds is what makes them worthwhile. If you get even slightly lucky and get two stars in any relevant stat like Skill/Def/Fatigue then they're already worth the investment.

I'm not a big fan of Adventurous Nobles though since they often start with a deficit in ranged defense, and all they have going is resolve which I can get out of a Monk, Cultist, or Witchhunter well enough. They /can/ be good, but you have to kind of keep them out of battles with Goblins and crossbow users for a while whilst you train them up.

[gazomierz]

Originally posted by Reed Calom:

I'm not a big fan of Adventurous Nobles though since they often start with a deficit in ranged defense, and all they have going is resolve which I can get out of a Monk, Cultist, or Witchhunter well enough. They /can/ be good, but you have to kind of keep them out of battles with Goblins and crossbow users for a while whilst you train them up.

They have also great melee attack and defense values. And couple of quite nice events associated with them.