Ancients vs DPS loss

[CyberDown]

So i was thinking, some of the ancients make absolutely no sense, even with no DPS loss, some ancients look great until you realize just how much global DPS they cost to get a nominal specilty case increase in DPS.

Has there been any thought into perhaps reworking a bunch of the shrines?

I mean paying 30% dps or more (mines at an 80% cost @ 8 souls to raise) for a 25% idle dps boost....its just pointless any way you look at it...

The active skill shrines...clog up my choice and have no place for a non clicker build....and cost tons of global DPS.


Things like increase click damage which comes at a huge DPS cost, and click damage is based on DPS so im not sure the math but is that even a good idea unless its a lucky first couple shrines with no rerolls?

I know its a cumulative type of gain, but some of the skills just dont make sense to even have or use....in fact most of them....Perhaps with some form of increase scaling some would pay out if heavily invested in....

I really want to see an end to all the active skill shrines though....how much have i wasted rerolling because ever shrines a stupid active skill bonus...and the only one that makes sense only makes sense with several other shrines that you may or may not ever see as an option (gold clicks chest and whatnot)


Just seems like a lot of the shrines are a soul garbage disposal, that spits out little in return for that global DPS spent on them, and seem like a loss as a whole.

I dont dislike spending globabl DPS as an idea, just that the returns dont add up, or make sense....and its sort of a missed oppertunity for a secondary layer of progression that game could otherwise have.

I often wonder, if i had never taken a single shrine, would i have just been better off?

[CyberDown]

dont bother to elaborate or anything.....why even bother to post that comment?


break down the math on me having to spend 8 souls to get 25% idle dps for me, my calculators busted i think.

[NIMO]

do the math again when you have like 100 souls and have to spent 8 of them, and then you will understand ;)
If not : 100 Souls = 1000 % Damage increase
92 Soulds + 25% increase = 920% * 1,25 = 1150 % increase

[josephdw106]

aye dont think about the number of souls in static form you need to think in the form of what you gain when you ascend and how to spend some of the not earned souls yet. at some point it may not be worth it but i think typically leveling the ancients that dps anyway are. it is harder to justify say spending souls for click gold gain for example so that may be way down the list when you earn hundreds of souls each ascend.

[Coco]

Hero Souls, are addictive. Ancients, are multiplicative. The only time to get ancients is after 100 souls (except for some of the good ancients, like Libertas and Siyalatas), so that you can get Souls faster. Examples of this are Vaagur, Soloman, and Atman. You see, they do not improve on your DPS very much, but in the end you end up with more souls than you already have.

The entire point of ancients is to speed up getting more souls. That is your main goal of ancients. DPS is another goal, but getting more souls is more important.

[Josh]

Originally posted by "unbindallexit:

Hero Souls, are addictive. Ancients, are multiplicative. The only time to get ancients is after 100 souls (except for some of the good ancients, like Libertas and Siyalatas), so that you can get Souls faster. Examples of this are Vaagur, Soloman, and Atman. You see, they do not improve on your DPS very much, but in the end you end up with more souls than you already have.

The entire point of ancients is to speed up getting more souls. That is your main goal of ancients. DPS is another goal, but getting more souls is more important.

Morgulis, Ancient of Death is additive but he is an exception to the rule, and a must have on any build.

[lezarman]

ouais mais non

[Quickhand69er]

Originally posted by NIMO:

do the math again when you have like 100 souls and have to spent 8 of them, and then you will understand ;)
If not : 100 Souls = 1000 % Damage increase
92 Soulds + 25% increase = 920% * 1,25 = 1150 % increase

Um, no. You spend 8 souls you loss 80%dps to gain 25%

I knew you was wrong but I did it anyway just to prove it.
at 8 hero souls and level 2 Siyalatas for 50% damage at 50,698q dps
I spend 3 hero souls, loss 30% damage for 25% more for level 3 Siyalatas now at 49,290q dps.

As you can see in the damage I lost 5% dps. The op is right.

[Coco]

Originally posted by Quickhand69er:

Originally posted by NIMO:

do the math again when you have like 100 souls and have to spent 8 of them, and then you will understand ;)
If not : 100 Souls = 1000 % Damage increase
92 Soulds + 25% increase = 920% * 1,25 = 1150 % increase

Um, no. You spend 8 souls you loss 80%dps to gain 25%

I knew you was wrong but I did it anyway just to prove it.
at 8 hero souls and level 2 Siyalatas for 50% damage at 50,698q dps
I spend 3 hero souls, loss 30% damage for 25% more for level 3 Siyalatas now at 49,290q dps.

As you can see in the damage I lost 5% dps. The op is right.

That honestly weirds me out. Usually Siyalatas the damage is instantly noticeable, assuming you are in idle. One way I like to check, is the rubies tab. Click on that, and see how much you would get in 8 hours (don't actually buy that). If there is an increase in gold earned, it may be work it.
There are calculators online for it, check out this one: http://www.rivsoft.net/clicker/ancientssoul

Paste your save data in that.

[Quickhand69er]

Each soul is 10% spending more then 2 is always a loss. Dont need a calculater. I just did it myself and reported my data.

[Coco]

Originally posted by Quickhand69er:

Each soul is 10% spending more then 2 is always a loss. Dont need a calculater. I just did it myself and reported my data.

Yes but I'm not sure if your data is an outlier.

The problem with ancients is the damage in mulplicative. If you get Siyalatas, if it is in idle mode, you gain bonus 25% damage per second, EVERYWHERE. In Souls, Dark Rituals, everywhere. Hero Souls are not.

If I had 108 souls, and I spent 8 of them, I would lose 80% of DPS, correct? Not really, because I get 108% bonuses from souls, and I spent 4 of them. Therefore, I lose 40 of 1040, which is about 5%. But then my idle bonus kicks in. So I get (x+x*1000%)*25%. X being your DPS.

So I would get an extremely high DPS boost. I lost about 5% of my DPS, for 20%.

At the end of the day, even if you do not believe in my math at all, know that Hero Souls are addictive. Ancients are multiplicative. Energized Dark Rituals increase the bonus from ancients. Therefore, Siyalatas is probably still better.

[Arkatar]

You guys need to understand that all buffs are multiplicative with each other.

8 HS + lvl 2 Siyalatas = 1.8 x 1.5 = 2.7
5 HS (8-3) + lvl 3 Siyalatas = 1.5 x 1.75 = 2.625

Now, try it again when you have 50 HS:
50 HS + lvl 3 Siyalatas = 6 x 1.75 = 9
46 HS + lvl 4 Siyalatas = 5.6 x 2 = 11.2

Bam! Major buff! It's all about using math to figure out if you lose more than you win, EVERY TIME YOU SPEND HS. Don`t wanna do the math? Then don't complain if you end up gimping yourself.

[On Vacation]

More like 'dont wanna do the math use one of the several calculator's from people who have already figured this out so you don't have to' =P

[goliath]

Use this ClickerHeroes Ancients optimizer:
http://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/clickerheroes/ancientssoul.html
it's really useful

[richttaylor]

The thing is, for siya to work right, you need to have siya^2 of souls leftover.

You had 8 souls, you spent 3 on level 3 siya, which left you with 5 souls.

To get level 3 siya and have it work right, it's highly recommended you have 9 souls leftover fort he best effect.

You'll be ready for level 4 when you can have 16 souls left.

Etc...

And that calculator's great as long as you keep your gold ancients leveled up to around 90-95% of siya's level. It under levels the gold heroes quite a bit, because it mostly has a focus on hero souls per hour.

[Quickhand69er]

Originally posted by Quickhand69er:

at 8 hero souls and level 2 Siyalatas for 50% damage at 50,698q dps
I spend 3 hero souls, loss 30% damage for 25% more for level 3 Siyalatas now at 49,290q dps.

As you can see in the damage I lost 5% dps.

That was my first report. Next is my secound.

at 18 hero souls and level 3 Siyalatas for 75% damage at 263Q dps
I spend 4 hero souls for level 4 Siyalatas now at 257Q dps.
14 souls and level 4 Siyalatas I lost dps once again.

Just proved twice it does not help. You can continue to upgrade it but im done.