"Autoclickers are considered cheating"

[Gyhthy]

I only play idle, so no hair off my back, but I'm curious as to what's caused this massive change in company policy. Their own community less than a year ago had a lot of mentions of auto clickers, creating and sharing them in kind, with many mentioned in the wiki. Now, unless you're willing to spend rubies or real money, they're persona-non-grata. The only mention I've seen by the Devs of them being considered cheating is 4 months ago, prior to that, nothing. Anyone else notice this change?

Just one example out of many from the community archive.
https://www.reddit.com/r/ClickerHeroes/comments/3glpul/what_auto_click_do_you_use/

First mention of third party clickers being "cheating"
https://www.reddit.com/r/ClickerHeroes/comments/4ov5i1/nerfing_juggernaut_diminishing_returns/d4fu5aq/

[nwnc710]

Well, if you're using an unapproved third party application to do something in the game that the developers did not indend for you to be able to do, that is the very definition of cheating. Clickstorm isn't cheating, it's in the game. This new autoclicker isn't cheating, it's in the game. This feature is the natural evolution of the player population getting to later and later stages in the game. Being able to level up your champions overnight while you sleep when you're an idler, or being able to not lose your juggernaut stacks as an active player keeps people engaged. Engaged people tend to spend more money on games that have the free to play format.

So the people that were using an auto clicker 4 months ago were cheating by forcing the curve ahead faster than the developers wanted to deal with. You could power level and be able to farm rubies and break the value of the cash currency in the game.

[Hans Rudi]

They just want to get money for CH2, its as simple as that.

[Nemonical-Yves]

nwnc710 の投稿を引用：

Well, if you're using an unapproved third party application to do something in the game that the developers did not indend for you to be able to do, that is the very definition of cheating.

That's a very dodgy definition. My mouse driver is an unapproved 3rd party application. Windows mouse keys as well, but nobody in his right mind would consider those cheating. Is Windows approved? What about Windows PowerShell, a part of Windows that can be used to automate things and is not an autoclicker by definition?

All we can do is click on stuff and press buttons. And technically that is all that an auto clicker can do as well. Sure, it doesn't translate mechanical user activity directly, instead it generates virtual clicks. But it goes through the provided game interface, so an auto clicker can do nothing that user can't do, just faster.

Disclosure: I do use some (but not excessive) automation. I still wouldn't be a cheater even if that "definition" above was true and strictly applied, since I build my automation myself, so it's not 3rd party.

nwnc710 の投稿を引用：

Clickstorm isn't cheating, it's in the game. This new autoclicker isn't cheating, it's in the game.

That has never been a criterium for something being a cheat or not. If you are not familiar with it, you might want to look up the Konami code. With a simple button combination you could get instant access to all powerups, 30 extra lives, unlimited lives, lots of stuff depending on the actual game. Or the quite famous IDDQD and IDKFA. All are clearly cheats, and all were in the game.

If auto clickers are cheating, then using the integrated ones is cheating as well, them being integrated doesn't change that. If they are not cheating, external ones aren't either, at least not for being external as it's only condition. I can see how some of them might be considered cheating, based on the amount of automation or how excessive the click rates are, but I don't see a clear line. It is debatable at best.

All in all, using auto clickers (at least moderately) was perfectly OK a while ago. It is not OK to label those players as cheaters in hindsight. That's why I strongly disagree with the developers change of mind. If you call someone a cheater who only did what was "allowed" when he did it, you loose credibility and piss people off.

[nwnc710]

Nemonical-Yves の投稿を引用：

I do use some (but not excessive) automation.

Thanks for saying this. I was wondering why your false equivolencies and rambling misinterpretation of a simple post I set forth "features are not cheats" and "having something that plays the game for you is cheating" (to paraphrase) but now I see it is just hampster wheel to justify the fact that you do, in fact, cheat. 65 hours of play time with highest zone reached of 27,200 is just rampant cheating.

[Nemonical-Yves]

nwnc710 の投稿を引用：

Thanks for saying this. I was wondering why your false equivolencies and rambling misinterpretation of a simple post I set forth "features are not cheats" and "having something that plays the game for you is cheating" (to paraphrase) but now I see it is just hampster wheel to justify the fact that you do, in fact, cheat.

So you take the easy way out. Of course, don't mind that I dismantled your "arguments". Just accuse me of cheating despite me not doing it, even by your definition from above. I wrote that part specifically because I like to put all cards on the table, not to justify what I do.

Btw, I don't have anything that plays the game for me. That would be excessive automation, something I don't use.

nwnc710 の投稿を引用：

65 hours of play time with highest zone reached of 27,200 is just rampant cheating.

How about many thousands (probably 6k to 8k) of hours in the web version, synced with Steam only to get the achievements I earned legit? I'm actually at 28,500, Steam only knows of 27,700 because I buried a Leroy Jenkins at that time and imported my save into the Steam version to get the achievement. Play time on Steam is no indicator for cheating, but certain patterns in achievement timestamps can be. You won't find those patterns in my timestamps because I didn't cheat.

[Rafein]

Yeah, using third part apps to do something you could not do ingame is cheating.

It's not really different than using a 3rd party program to edit your save

[Nemonical-Yves]

Rafein の投稿を引用：

Yeah, using third part apps to do something you could not do ingame is cheating.

1. If it wasn't cheating 5 months ago, why is it now?
2. What about apps that only do something that could easily be done manually ingame?
3. What about apps that are not 3rd party?

Rafein の投稿を引用：

It's not really different than using a 3rd party program to edit your save

Auto clickers go through the interface provided by the game. They click on stuff that is supposed to be clicked on. Save editing circumvents this by manipulating the data directly. Still a massive difference.

[Gyhthy]

Rafein の投稿を引用：

Yeah, using third part apps to do something you could not do ingame is cheating.

It's not really different than using a 3rd party program to edit your save

I've had people tell me in posts that the Devs are okay with save editing though; giving yourself Rubies is fine with the devs, since it's a single player game, etc, etc, etc. So like, either I've consistantly gotten bad/wrong news from the community, or something has changed within the Dev team within the last... I wanna say 8 months to a year?

Edit: And before this even becomes an issue at his point, linking to the Reddit community is fine. The Devs are the Mods after all, and they have a link to it in the game itself. So the fact they were perfectly fine with autoclickers being made, posted, and even part of the wiki there for a long time, shows that something has definitely changed within the Dev mindset, and over all community.

[Don't Want Another Acct]

oh i see, so those turbo controllers ppl used on the NES, even the ones branded by nintendo? Cheating. Using a mouse with a rapidfire setting? cheating. but using a mechanic within the agme that does the exact same thing? not cheating.

Honestly though, what does it matter in a single player game? your use of such things doesn't impact anyone else's ability to play.

[Hans Rudi]

Wenn using an addon or tool you can ask yourself a simple question: can i do that myself? If the answer is no, than its cheating. Its just that easy.

So can you click at 10+ cps for hour after hour by yourself? Probalby not. So its cheating, was always and will always be.

Now with the build in Autoclicker ist ofcourse not cheating cause its a feature the game provides.

[Nemonical-Yves]

Burnsteyn の投稿を引用：

Now with the build in Autoclicker ist ofcourse not cheating cause its a feature the game provides.

Once more: what does it matter if the game provides it? There are tons of cheat codes provided by games, f.e. the Konami code. Integrated into the game, still a cheat.

Ans as for your question wheter one can do that himself, how far does it go? Can you really click all by yourself? Or do you rely on a mouse (itself a physical 3rd party tool) to do it? Oh, that's an exception all of a sudden... but why?

Strictly speaking, the automation I use (stuff I could do manually and implemented by myself, not a pre-existing auto clicker) relies less on 3rd party tools than manual clicking does.

[Gyhthy]

Froggy Fraggelnos の投稿を引用：

The ones who Developed the game is ultimately those who define what a cheat is and is not for their product imo.

I highly, highly disagree with that. I mean, let's just take for example Mario. You can literally over-ride some of the game's own programming, and things like that, but the game is so old now, the developers have all moved to different things and probably could care less about how people are playing. Same goes for this; what happens in a period of time when you Devs stop caring about this, and move onto the new big and shiny project, who then defines cheating and not? Not to mention the Steam or whatever DRM TOS that is in place that you need to stay within. You can't exactly say "Yeah, using SAM is totally not cheating in our game", when you need to stay within the limits of the Steam TOS which clearly states that it is.

Beyond THAT even, what happens to companies who have a group of Devs start the project, and then some leave? Who do you listen to at that point...? The Devs that were newly hired, or the ones that started the project? For one man teams, this MAY make sense, but for anything larger than that, it just doesn't.

Isn't it more the community opinion that should dictate what's cheating and what isn't? More to the point, why is it just as you were starting to work on your other project, and this AutoClicker in-game I have to assume is part of that next project that you wanted to monitize to keep the company going, suddenly you now begin to say what you think is cheating and what isn't? I mean, the threads I linked aren't the only instances of Autoclickers on your own curated - yes, reddit can be seen as a curated community when so many Devs are on Mod duty - community, and yet there was no mention of them being bad until recently. Beyond that even, the wiki, on reddit, where a lot of the Mods are Staff, had links to autoclickers they recommended...

It would be nice to not get a PR answer, and get why the change actually occured, because its pretty obvious that one has indeed come about, from being totally okay with autoclickers to finally calling them cheating, all around the same time you began development of your own, and a second project. If its purely due to wishing to make money off of it via stigmatizing the use of autoclickers, at least be forward about it and not hide it. Again, I only idle anyway, so it doesn't imapct me at all - not gonna be purchasing these autoclickers either - I just find it annoying when things suddenly change on the drop of a hat.

[Nemonical-Yves]

Froggy Fraggelnos の投稿を引用：

The ones who Developed the game is ultimately those who define what a cheat is and is not for their product imo.

With all due respect, but no, at least not like this. It is OK to define the rules up front, it's not OK to just change the rules, least of all retrospectively. Devs aren't always right. If a player does something that is not considered a cheat, continues to do what is not a cheat and suddenly is labeled a cheater because the devs changed their mind (4 months ago in this case by defining auto clickers as cheats), that's just not right.

Froggy Fraggelnos の投稿を引用：

It is OK to cheat as long as it does not impact others.

It's nice and all that the devs wouldn't mind if I cheated in their game, but I would mind. Cheated progress in any game would be worthless and not an achievement, that's why I decided against cheating for myself. There is a big difference between "it's OK to use auto clickers" (implies they are not a cheat) and "auto clickers are cheats, but it's OK to cheat".

If the definition of auto clickers as cheats would have been in effect when I started this game, I probably wouldn't have started it at all. Well, seems like it's time to end it. Once I get the last two achievements legit (by the old rules), that will be it for me. The last one could still take a while, I won't just cheat it in because I'm not a cheater. And the devs have no authority to say otherwise, I refuse to accept a retrospective change of rules. Yes, I am pissed about this.

[NomiSaltium]

In the end, I think this argument is partially caused by people who confound "autoclickers" with "third-party programs". Third-party programs aren't allowed because they can turn progress into an automated process.

External autoclickers on the other hand are allowed to some extent (despite technically being a kind of third-party program), as long as you only use them for clicking on monsters. The game has a cap of 40 clicks per second (technically 80 clicks per second, but only 40 of them will count towards killing monsters and Juggernaut's bonus). So technically, the game itself allows you to click that fast with external autoclickers, even though some people would think that an autoclicker set to 15 clicks per second is cheating.

The built-in Autoclickers that recently came out actually ignore this cap and can be used for activating skills and leveling up heroes. So, it's possible for some people to have a significantly higher amount of clicks per second with less lag (and less crashes) than many other people can. That is an advantage.

Granted, the autoclickers become more expensive as you buy more of them (+50 rubies per autoclicker), and due to the way they're obtained, they technically give diminishing returns. I mean, +1 autoclicker when you already have 10 of them is only a 10% boost to clicks per second, compared to +1 autoclicker when you already have 1. But that's still an advantage for those with better computers and/or a very large hoard of rubies.

Limiting the amount of autoclickers you can set to killing monsters could limit that advantage, but I don't think people want that, considering you can choose the amount of autoclickers you want to use among the ones you already have purchased. Limiting the amount of autoclickers you can buy could work as well, but some people wouldn't want that either for the same reason.

[ViciousCareBear]

"Being able to level up your champions overnight while you sleep when you're an idler, or being able to not lose your juggernaut stacks as an active player keeps people engaged. Engaged people tend to spend more money on games that have the free to play format. "
huh? aint this going in the direction of aurtoclickers are good for the game?