imperial ship choices

[kiro the avenger!]

im only asking because the game mechanics seem really ill defined with incomplete and outdated guides at best
no where can i find a reliable DPS per lance battery, or DPS per macro battery(+how its affected by range and armour), or a DPS per hanger

so what imperial ships are good for what? changing and seeing what works gets expensive fast and im aware there's only so much reknown to go around in the campaign before i start getting places i want to be prepared for

ive decided that (at least against AI) torps>novas because the latter is just really inaccurate and its pretty easy to land a good portion of a torp salvo (partly because the AI makes minimal attempt to dodge)

im currently a lvl 7 admiral
im using the overlord at 12k
but its the cruisers that really have my umming and ahhing about what i should use
do i use the gothic at 9k?
do i use the tyrant at 9k? at 6k? at 3k?
do i use the lunar at 9k? at 6k? at 3k?

[GrenadeMagnet6]

I'm running only Torpedo boats and I fight everything at close range (3K) in the campaign. I have Dauntless Mk2s, Tyrants and one Overlord (on Turn 19, Normal difficulty). With the builds below I have not lost a single mission and I'll play all mission types.

I'm using a "Brawler" build that Youtube poster filthyrobot used in his campaign playthrough, though there were major skill and upgrade changes since his postings. All ships have AdMech favors. Filthyrobot has two intro videos to tactics and ship favors that are good to watch, look for them on his channel.

For most 600pt games I typically take 1X Tyrant and the 4X Dauntless Mk2s. However if the mission is a Cruiser Class I'll take an alternate group of 1 X Overlord, 2X Tyrant and 1 Mk2.

Then for a 700 pt game I'll use the alternate fleet above, but add either 1 more Mk2, or drop the Mk2s and add 1 X Tyrant if a I want points left to add a Widowmaker escort, for the increased detection ability.

I have not had a need to deploy a Battleship, yet. The fleet-point/benefit tradeoff does not appear optimal to take the 252 point ship.

I've been upgrading the Dauntless Mk2s first, then the Tyrants, then the Overlord if I have any renown left. You get more effective use of renown for upgrading the light cruisers first.

I rotate skills depending on the mission between Super-charged void shield, plasma and disruption bombs. I will switch out to stasis bombs for convoy defense or planetary assault missions (defense). I also will use EIC skill for the Overlord or Tyrants depending on the mission (Assassination or Data Recovery) to give the bigger ships and extra speed and maneuver boost.

For upgrades I'll go for all ships above: fast torps, +shield reload speed, additional void shield, A/P macros. The optional upgrades later are belt armor, maybe Voss Pattern for larger ships. I may get macro range upgrade later for Overlord and Tyrants (haven't reach that point to add that upgrade, yet). Maneuvering upgrades might also be useful for some missions (i.e faster engines or thrusters for larger ships).

I also upgraded my Transports to make them more durable for convoy missions with additional void shield, + shield recharge. I thought about Voss Pattern but opted for 25% improved combustion gauge, as I tend to pulse the AAF order and slowly move the transports during the mission to the escape-zone, so the 25% combustion gauge helps there.

[kiro the avenger!]

i heard AP rounds dont apply to plasma batteries, is that true?

sounds like its best just to maximise 3k macro damage then, thanks

[Fendelphi]

Originally posted by kiro the avenger!:

i heard AP rounds dont apply to plasma batteries, is that true?

sounds like its best just to maximise 3k macro damage then, thanks

Not true(that I know of), since they are still Macro weapons.

However, Plasma Macros' strength is their versatility due to long range.
Not that they wont benefit from the AP upgrade, but it is only efficient within 3k range(While Plasma Macros have a max range of 12k as standard).
For the Tyrant, it is still a good first offensive upgrade, since you only have 1 Plasma(and 1 regular) Macro battery per broadside and still wants to be mostly at close range due to lack of other long range options(aside from skills and Torpedoes).

For the Overlord, depending on playstyle, there might be better first offensive upgrades(like Targeting matrix to increase macro accuracy above 6k ranges), as it has pure Plasma Macros and long range Lances, and so can be used in a different capacity.

[Fendelphi]

As for the ships "optimal" engagement range, it differs from playstyle to playstyle.

I would say that:

9k range for Overlord, Mars, Upgraded Gothic and Dictator. The reason for that is a mix of accuracy and skill usage.
- The Overlord will deal more damage at 9k ranges than at 12k ranges due to better accuracy and more reliable torpedo salvos. It also have 3 skills, and depending on which ones, you would want to stay within range. Also, if you attempt to fight at your maximum range, there will be times where the enemy can easily leave your range(unless you upgrade it further), decreasing your overall damage output.
- The Mars at 9k for similar reasons, although it can more efficiently work at 12k(since it Macros wont reach 9k anyway, unless upgraded). 9k engagement range makes sure that a target wont suddenly be out of range for your Ordnance.
- The Gothic has pinpoint accuracy with it's lances(except vs Eldar) and can utilize High Energy Turns really efficiently at 9k ranges, while firing Torpedo at good oppotunities.
On the other hand, it is the cheapest of your cruisers, so you can convert it into a "expendable"(no Imp ship is really expendable) ramming and boarding ship. Focus on Brace for Impact duration, Cooldown reduction and improving ramming and boarding actions, as well as speed and mobility.
- The Dictator is an odd mix of ranges and weapon systems. It has good forward firing power, compared to other Imp cruisers, due to Ordnance.
Because of that, Cooldown reduction(upgrades, crew and Reload! orders) can make a good increase in firepower(benefits both torpedoes and Ordnance). This allows it to keep it's high frontal armor directly at the enemy, while it's single Macro battery makes it risky for fast light ships to attempt to flank it.
It could sit at 12k range, but I find that my Torpedoes spread too much here and I cant use my skills as effectively(I take the Admech favour on these for a total of 3 skills and 6 upgrades).

The Lunar, Tyrant and Dominator, I will set to a 6k standard(unless specialized in brawling with AP, boarding and ramming). The benefits of having some room to maneuver(and avoid getting collapsed upon) while still maintaining good macro accuracy, makes, IMO, 6k the best range for these ships.
You can always move them closer manually when you want to ram or finish off a ship, rather than trying to brawl from the start. But others might disagree to this tactic.

[kiro the avenger!]

Originally posted by Fendelphi:

...

okay then, you're saying its best to have a mid-range (6-9k) macro fleet then?
i think i'll stay away from the nova cannon ships tbh because it seems to me that unless theyre spammed all they do is hurt shields prior to a battle, and the minimum range is far too long to be used once in a battle, and too risky with the scatter. whereas torps seem to do good damage prior (thanks to dumb AI) and brutal damage during. (i like the technique of giving them one broadside, then HET to give the other, firing a torp salvo on the way round)

i would honestly just like some kind of solid data on what does what damage and stuff, because im a very mathematical person and i like to math it myself (although i fully apreciate the help and advice)

[Morden]

I cant help you with maths (lots of random + things like that you can dodge even macro-hit if change ship spped after salvo is out, coz macros have they own hit boxes), but I can tell you that you can win campaign with maxed Adeptus Mechanicum Retribution+Mars+Overlord, all upgraded on shields, angle speed, fast torpedoes and ramming (Mars on faster ordnance cd instead of ramming). Dont forget that torpedoes is your best DPS so use thrusters when they are availeble, dont always fight broadside. And ram, of course.

[kiro the avenger!]

Originally posted by Morden:

I cant help you with maths (lots of random + things like that you can dodge even macro-hit if change ship spped after salvo is out, coz macros have they own hit boxes), but I can tell you that you can win campaign with maxed Adeptus Mechanicum Retribution+Mars+Overlord, all upgraded on shields, angle speed, fast torpedoes and ramming (Mars on faster ordnance cd instead of ramming). Dont forget that torpedoes is your best DPS so use thrusters when they are availeble, dont always fight broadside. And ram, of course.

yes im aware that you can never fully account for everything but still

also is it best to use regular or melta torpedoes? so far ive used melta until the ship's getting low, then i switch to regular, but id really like to know what kind of DOTs fire has, as i presume the chance to ignite is just 100-armour

[TheHatori1]

OK so..
Lunar and Gothic are ♥♥♥♥♥. You would need all lance setup for these, and Imperium simply dont have lance boats and they have only range of 6k or 9k with upgrades so, not better than Macro on this range.. If you wanna torpedoes, use Tyrant. If you wanna Nova fleet get multiple Dominator that is also very good broadside brawler. I dont have experience with carrier one, cuz i dont really like carriers. For BC Overlord. You can use him as brawler with additional shield, penetrating macro, ram upgrade and voss patern shield, maybe some turn rate, or long range with some brawling capability... Bur IN is generally quite bad for long range combat and good for brawling AND ramming. Dont forget to use torpedoes while aproaching for ram. And in that case use normal torpedoes for highest possible burst.. Melta ones are better for long range sniping, forcing enemy to use emergency repair.

[GrenadeMagnet6]

Originally posted by Fendelphi:

As for the ships "optimal" engagement range, it differs from playstyle to playstyle.

+1

Originally posted by kiro the avenger!:

also is it best to use regular or melta torpedoes? so far ive used melta until the ship's getting low, then i switch to regular, but id really like to know what kind of DOTs fire has, as i presume the chance to ignite is just 100-armour

I use regular most of the time since Melta's don't always start a fire. Sometimes I'll switch to a Melta spread if the enemy's ship shield is down and their hull is really low, and if I start a fire I can turn my attention to any remaining healthy enemy ships.

Originally posted by Fendelphi:

The Lunar, Tyrant and Dominator, I will set to a 6k standard(unless specialized in brawling with AP, boarding and ramming). The benefits of having some room to maneuver(and avoid getting collapsed upon) while still maintaining good macro accuracy, makes, IMO, 6k the best range for these ships.
You can always move them closer manually when you want to ram or finish off a ship, rather than trying to brawl from the start. But others might disagree to this tactic.

Yeah, I'll stay 6K against Orks at times if the odds are even, since their guns are brutal at close range. But I look for opportunities to ram all the time. IN are great at ramming, especially if you turn on "Brace for Impact" before ramming. I also hope to equip ramming prows on my larger ships if I wind up with any upgrade points left over.

[Epithet Lost]

I think all imperial ships are viable one way or another, you just need to observe what the ship is good for and play accordingly.
There will be personal preferences, in my case I love the dominator since it is focused on doing one thing very well, that being midrange broadsiding. Some ship will be better than others at a specific aspect, but I doubt any is objectively better than others (aside from the firestorm and sword frigates).

As for nova cannon and torpedo, they are quite different weapons despite being seemingly similar. Torpedoes are most useful at close range, where you can hit the entire salvo to an enemy broadside. You can launch it across the map but by the time it reaches the target the salvo would have dispersed and typically only 1 torpedo at most will hit (and that's assuming you get the aim right and the turrets don't destroy it) which is not exactly incredible. Nova cannon on the other hand is a long range weapon since it is hitscan. It is also extremely useful on convoy missions to destroy transporters that slip through, which is why I think it is important to have at least one nova cannon in your possession, even if you don't always bring it on every mission.

[kiro the avenger!]

so i restarted the campaign and went for a an entirely torp/macro setup with my ships
Overlords, Tyrants and DauntlessII in varying degrees
setup for tanking and a mixture of skills, generally more utility than dps skills

im really enjoying, it seems a lot more effective than my previous setup :)
thanks for the advice guys

[Fendelphi]

Originally posted by kiro the avenger!:

Originally posted by Fendelphi:

...

okay then, you're saying its best to have a mid-range (6-9k) macro fleet then?
i think i'll stay away from the nova cannon ships tbh because it seems to me that unless theyre spammed all they do is hurt shields prior to a battle, and the minimum range is far too long to be used once in a battle, and too risky with the scatter. whereas torps seem to do good damage prior (thanks to dumb AI) and brutal damage during. (i like the technique of giving them one broadside, then HET to give the other, firing a torp salvo on the way round)

i would honestly just like some kind of solid data on what does what damage and stuff, because im a very mathematical person and i like to math it myself (although i fully apreciate the help and advice)

Not saying it is best, but it allows your fleet to be flexible. If you set the engagement range to 3k, my experience is that you will often find your ships being outnumbered and focused more often, because they "default" to that super close range.
6-9k gives you some time to manually adjust ranges(giving them direct move orders) to avoid that.

As for the math, you can only get rough estimates, because it is heavily RNG based.
On paper, a Dominator has (2 batteries of 4 cannons)x18 damage broadside, every 12 seconds.
Or 8x18x5 = 720 DPM or 12 DPS.
But that is if all shots hit(you usually have about 80-60% accuracy) and if the enemy armor does not bounce shots(between 75-25% chance of bounce depending on the enemy's facing and if you have AP macros within 3k range).

A Gothic with Lance Broadsides, on paper, has (2 batteries of 2 Lances)x12 damage per broadside, every 12 second.
Or 4x12x5 = 240 DPM or 4 DPS.
But it has perfect accuracy(100%, except against Eldar) and always count enemy armor as 25(so 3 out of 4 shots will deal damage on average).
So while the "Potential damage capacity" is lower on the Gothic compared to the Dominator, it is more reliable, especially at medium ranges and against heavily armored targets.

If you then add in stuff like Critical hits(favours high crit rate + amount of shots per minute) and special orders, it gets even more complex and RNG based, as Cooldown reduction then starts to influence your DPS(Lock On! adds +20% to your accuracy and +100% bonus to the crit rating for 45 seconds, and Brace for Impact! adds +20 to your Armor on all sides and -20% to enemy's accuracy against the ship for 45 seconds. There is an upgrade that increase the duration with 50%).