Did you really have to keep the NES framerate slowdown in this?

[Crux]

This would all be fine if you would just introduce an option to remove slowdown and flicker.
Everyone is happy.
Everyone wins.

[sere]

People are just short sighted and/or stupid. Even if you were to "recode" the game with a multiplatform engine or framework built for leveraging new platforms, you risk massive dispartiy. Now, when you take a much older game like these mega man titles, the only way you can achieve parity is to make all platforms retain the original platform's (nes in this case) mode and limitations. This is a collection, not a remake.. it was handled exactly like a legacy collection should be and console players will have the same gameplay potential with no gameplay advantages over the 3ds or Steam.

Not to mention, people have no idea of efficiency and how it pertains to performing any kind of work.

[AxlRocks.Area_Zero]

Publicado originalmente por sere:

People are just short sighted and/or stupid. Even if you were to "recode" the game with a multiplatform engine or framework built for leveraging new platforms, you risk massive dispartiy. Now, when you take a much older game like these mega man titles, the only way you can achieve parity is to make all platforms retain the original platform's (nes in this case) mode and limitations. This is a collection, not a remake.. it was handled exactly like a legacy collection should be and console players will have the same gameplay potential with no gameplay advantages over the 3ds or Steam.

Not to mention, people have no idea of efficiency and how it pertains to performing any kind of work.

Removing slowdown is not a remake. Megaman Powered Up is a remake. Resident Evil GC is a remake. Is MMAC suddenly a remake now? Rockman Complete Works a remake? So does that also mean every multiplat that is on console and PC both, where it runs better on higher spec PCs, that's a remake? Just because there isn't a forced parity between two obviously different hardware setups?

When you port a game to better hardware, it has always been expected to run appropriately. I won't even list examples because it's the overwhelming majority of games -ever- ported to better hardware.

And huh? Just, what? It's a collection NES Megaman ports, it would run exactly the same on PS4, Xbox One, Steam, and 3DS if they added a slowdown toggle. What is even your point about advantages? I'm not saying they should add it just to Steam, it should be on every version of the game.

[sere]

Publicado originalmente por AxlRocks.Area_Zero:

I still think it's mind boggling that for some reason the normal expectation for a port got turned upside down and now quite a lot of people suddenly want this to run as poorly as it did on the NES, when normally ports to better hardware are expected to perform better.

There is quite a distinction to be made for ports depending on which era the given game originates. Expectations for porting 20-30 year old games are going to be different than porting something more recent, when the platforms already coexisted but the software was not yet released on more or all of them. A nostalgia driven player can still want "poor nes performance" for a mega man re-release while being skeptical or upset when capcom ports dmc or RE titles that create disparity between ps2, ps3, gc, wii, and PC. They are very different things for very real and rightfully pragmatic reasons.

I get your other point, though. they added features to a classic game but retained the "flaws". How does that resolve the purist argument? On one hand, it doesn't, on the other, adding features can be possible on all platforms so the 3ds player can get the same options as the ps4 player but they both still have the same nes hardware legacy as well. They are options, and they can be offered without breaking parity and also keeping the original form intact. It's harder and less efficient to do everything by "recoding" it.

[sere]

Publicado originalmente por AxlRocks.Area_Zero:

Publicado originalmente por sere:

People are just short sighted and/or stupid. Even if you were to "recode" the game with a multiplatform engine or framework built for leveraging new platforms, you risk massive dispartiy. Now, when you take a much older game like these mega man titles, the only way you can achieve parity is to make all platforms retain the original platform's (nes in this case) mode and limitations. This is a collection, not a remake.. it was handled exactly like a legacy collection should be and console players will have the same gameplay potential with no gameplay advantages over the 3ds or Steam.

Not to mention, people have no idea of efficiency and how it pertains to performing any kind of work.

Removing slowdown is not a remake. Megaman Powered Up is a remake. Resident Evil GC is a remake. Is MMAC suddenly a remake now? Rockman Complete Works a remake? So does that also mean every multiplat that is on console and PC both, where it runs better on higher spec PCs, that's a remake? Just because there isn't a forced parity between two obviously different hardware setups?

When you port a game to better hardware, it has always been expected to run appropriately. I won't even list examples because it's the overwhelming majority of games -ever- ported to better hardware.

And huh? Just, what? It's a collection NES Megaman ports, it would run exactly the same on PS4, Xbox One, Steam, and 3DS if they added a slowdown toggle. What is even your point about advantages? I'm not saying they should add it just to Steam, it should be on every version of the game.

Release a rom or a simple encapsulation, emulating a title's original platform, porting a game, or use a multiplatform development tool, those are different things and I am trying to point that out but you seem confused as to what I meant by my examples. I am not saying removing slowdown in anything necessarily qualifies it to a single approach.

You generalize expectations for bringing a game from one platform to another that isn't always true between cases of much older games versus more recent games. I do not condone lazy ports that make one incarnation lack elements of the other.

To answer your rhetorical questions as to whether I think such and such is necessarily a remake, port, or whichever.. simply, "no". We are in more agreement than you realize.

[Sephrax]

Publicado originalmente por AxlRocks.Area_Zero:

Is MMAC suddenly a remake now? Rockman Complete Works a remake?

*facepalm*

Anniversary Collection:
- Complete Works
- 7+8+2 arcade games

Remixed music, Navi Mode? Those were already in Complete Works.

[AxlRocks.Area_Zero]

Publicado originalmente por Sephrax:

Publicado originalmente por AxlRocks.Area_Zero:

Is MMAC suddenly a remake now? Rockman Complete Works a remake?

*facepalm*

Anniversary Collection:
- Complete Works
- 7+8+2 arcade games

Remixed music, Navi Mode? Those were already in Complete Works.

Did you even read his posts? Or you actually somehow think those are remakes? Those are additions to the base games, they didn't change anything in the gameplay itself or even update to 16 or 32 bit graphics or 3D, and I brought up absolutely nothing about the remixed music and navi mode, both of which were optional as far as I know. Options =/= remake. And what does the number of games have to do with anything?

Publicado originalmente por sere:

Publicado originalmente por AxlRocks.Area_Zero:

Removing slowdown is not a remake. Megaman Powered Up is a remake. Resident Evil GC is a remake. Is MMAC suddenly a remake now? Rockman Complete Works a remake? So does that also mean every multiplat that is on console and PC both, where it runs better on higher spec PCs, that's a remake? Just because there isn't a forced parity between two obviously different hardware setups?

When you port a game to better hardware, it has always been expected to run appropriately. I won't even list examples because it's the overwhelming majority of games -ever- ported to better hardware.

And huh? Just, what? It's a collection NES Megaman ports, it would run exactly the same on PS4, Xbox One, Steam, and 3DS if they added a slowdown toggle. What is even your point about advantages? I'm not saying they should add it just to Steam, it should be on every version of the game.

Release a rom or a simple encapsulation, emulating a title's original platform, porting a game, or use a multiplatform development tool, those are different things and I am trying to point that out but you seem confused as to what I meant by my examples. I am not saying removing slowdown in anything necessarily qualifies it to a single approach.

You generalize expectations for bringing a game from one platform to another that isn't always true between cases of much older games versus more recent games. I do not condone lazy ports that make one incarnation lack elements of the other.

To answer your rhetorical questions as to whether I think such and such is necessarily a remake, port, or whichever.. simply, "no". We are in more agreement than you realize.

Look, I do not care how many cases are different, about parity, about remakes, about the definition of legacy, about how obvious things are obviously different yet similar enough to be compared. Between 30 year old games and 3 month old games. My point, the point of others in this thread, this forum, and other places online is that it's ridiculous, in our eyes, for NES games to be forced to perform as they did on that hardware. Previous collections did not force this, there's no reason this one couldn't have been the same way. The only reason possible is that it's actually emulation. Otherwise, it's Capcom being cheap or DE just wanting it to be like this for their ideal of preservation to be met. If we agree somehow, that's all fine and dandy but it's irrelevant to the basic point.

[Sephrax]

Publicado originalmente por AxlRocks.Area_Zero:

Did you even read his posts? Or you actually somehow think those are remakes? Those are additions to the base games, they didn't change anything in the gameplay itself or even update to 16 or 32 bit graphics or 3D, and I brought up absolutely nothing about the remixed music and navi mode, both of which were optional as far as I know. Options =/= remake. And what does the number of games have to do with anything?

Complete Works was basically a remake. Do you remember Navi Mode? That changed gameplay quite a bit. I wouldn't consider AC a remake because it was just ports even though they removed the ending of MM7.

[theclaw135]

Publicado originalmente por AxlRocks.Area_Zero:

Look, I do not care how many cases are different, about parity, about remakes, about the definition of legacy, about how obvious things are obviously different yet similar enough to be compared. Between 30 year old games and 3 month old games. My point, the point of others in this thread, this forum, and other places online is that it's ridiculous, in our eyes, for NES games to be forced to perform as they did on that hardware. Previous collections did not force this, there's no reason this one couldn't have been the same way. The only reason possible is that it's actually emulation. Otherwise, it's Capcom being cheap or DE just wanting it to be like this for their ideal of preservation to be met. If we agree somehow, that's all fine and dandy but it's irrelevant to the basic point.

"previous collections" may well be a factor. By having the slowdown, this collection takes a step further in attempting to differentiate itself from them.

Which brings us back to the "misguided" part I mentioned before.

[AxlRocks.Area_Zero]

Publicado originalmente por Sephrax:

Publicado originalmente por AxlRocks.Area_Zero:

Did you even read his posts? Or you actually somehow think those are remakes? Those are additions to the base games, they didn't change anything in the gameplay itself or even update to 16 or 32 bit graphics or 3D, and I brought up absolutely nothing about the remixed music and navi mode, both of which were optional as far as I know. Options =/= remake. And what does the number of games have to do with anything?

Complete Works was basically a remake. Do you remember Navi Mode? That changed gameplay quite a bit. I wouldn't consider AC a remake because it was just ports even though they removed the ending of MM7.

I wouldn't consider it a remake personally, but either way, my point is that slowdown removal being optional doesn't equate to remake and even if it does to some people, which is fine mind you, I'm not saying that's wrong, it's not to the degree of most other games which are considered remakes. Like my previous examples, Megaman Powered Up or REmake.

Publicado originalmente por theclaw135:

Publicado originalmente por AxlRocks.Area_Zero:

Look, I do not care how many cases are different, about parity, about remakes, about the definition of legacy, about how obvious things are obviously different yet similar enough to be compared. Between 30 year old games and 3 month old games. My point, the point of others in this thread, this forum, and other places online is that it's ridiculous, in our eyes, for NES games to be forced to perform as they did on that hardware. Previous collections did not force this, there's no reason this one couldn't have been the same way. The only reason possible is that it's actually emulation. Otherwise, it's Capcom being cheap or DE just wanting it to be like this for their ideal of preservation to be met. If we agree somehow, that's all fine and dandy but it's irrelevant to the basic point.

"previous collections" may well be a factor. By having the slowdown, this collection takes a step further in attempting to differentiate itself from them.

Which brings us back to the "misguided" part I mentioned before.

It could well be for differentiation's sake, and I believe so at least to a degree as far as the marketing is concerned. What with preservation, original experience, accurate and all those words being thrown around. I do feel it was misguided and there are better ways to differentiate this from MMAC or RMCW and think it'd be a financially more sound option to actually spend some money adding a toggle for those that want it than to not. I don't think the average player gets as excited about "preservation" or an art gallery as they do improvements or playable additions. Challenge Mode is the one thing I seen most people talking about concerning this collection.

[KillingArts]

it's funny how you guys understand the slow downs. you argue the slowdowns happen because they lost the source code and could take them out of the original version? that would imply the slowdowns were actually programmed. which of course is nonsense. the slowdowns back in the day happened, because the NES was not fast enough to process at certain points. and the game is programmed in the way that every frame is displayed (instead of programming time-based and skipping frames that cannot be displayed in time). lots of games were programmed that way back in the day. that is why many pc games were too fast on modern pc's a few years after release. one example i remember was Might&Magic III. it was nearly unplayable, because it was way too fast for me on my 386 (or did i have the 486 already when i played it? don't remember). so when old games on old hardware had slowdowns, this was simply due to a lack of processing power. it's not like they actually programmed the game to be slower sometimes. therefore the slowdowns in these new versions are either a deliberate choice (to give us an experience similar to the old days) or a result of emulation with limited processing power (and as far as i know, this is not an emulation).

[Piotyr]

First of all for everyone here who thinks these are emulations they are not, these are ports to a new engine.
Second of all it is extremely easy for them to remove slowdown because they already did, on rockman complete works. I know because I played through all of those (I love the extra sound channels so when you shoot your buster it doesn't cut out the music, does this port do that?)
Source code is not an issue here nor is emulation because these are straight ports on an engine meant to run on multiple platforms.

[Florence]

I'm a little sad that this modern audience can't appreciate the considerable amount of work that went into making this collection a near 1:1 NATIVE port of the NES originals, down to the programming quirks, sprite flicker, and slowdown. This isn't some cheap collection of ROMs; this was assembled with love by incredibly dedicated people who trogged through assembly code to create the most accurate ports of the NES Mega Man games. These ports are more accurate than some EMULATORS (like Virtual Console) are.

If you believe playing Mega Man on NES is fine but think that the Legacy Collection is a bad experience, you have double standards since the slowdown is no more severe than it was on NES. If you wish for Capcom to make the port less accurate for the sake of modern convenience, then shame on you. You might as well ask them to put in an integrated save system as well, or let Mega Man dash in 1/2, or make the games run in non-stretched widescreen. /rant

(I really do value the accuracy of this collection and take a bit of offense to people who want to change that!)

[Turbo Nozomix]

Making slowdown and flickering an option is really the best way to do things. Those aspects just aren't appreciable for many, including many who played the games on the NES, such as myself, and who still have their NES and games. I don't want those elements in NES games in re-releases, just as I don't want them in my NES cartridge games as I'm playing them on my NES.

[Sephrax]

Anyone who says that programming slowdown is stupid idea. Think about this:
Would programmed slowdown allow more time for hardware to process it?
Why do you think some of the devs in 80s/90s figured out how to push NES and SNES beyond the limits making them do things that were thought to be impossible (DKC anyone?)

I mean, when I play games with very high fps my GPU's fans start to spin but if I force my GPU to output max 60 (V-Sync) then it goes completely silent meaning it's not working at or anywhere near it's max potential processing power.

[Piotyr]

I would rather play them on Rockman complete works where I get an upgraded experience playing the game as intended, and no it was not intended to have slowdown that was a limitation they had to live with.