"randomly-generated skill trees"

[TheQuestion]

Why?

[Lord Gek]

Because it adds greatly to replay. It's also pretty clever how they do this. Your starting skills are fairly set for each character as well as what skills, over several games, and stat bonuses each character gets from completing missions, but beyond these fixed starting skills, the order the secondary enhancements of those skills show up for each of the characters will be randomized each play through.

[Fhoenix]

Because you can't explore the whole tree in a single run and some skills are better than others. If the tree was constant you would more or less go for the same skills on the same path every time. And some skill combinations would be impossible.
I am not a fan of this randomization either, but I myself don't see a better way they could have done it in this game.

[Cloud]

I both like and dislike the random skill tree, I like that the general skill trees are randomized (like dragon jump and its upgrades will sometimes be near start but other times will be at the end) however I don't like the randomization within those branches because some times a mostly useless skill like damaging aura after ghost walk will be near the start and other times it will be at the end. I think the other two skill trees would benefit from a little less rng too, it's annoying when I have a skill card but I have to get 2 more before I can get an actually useful skill.

[SavageTech]

The random trees would be okay if upgrade cards didn't also randomly decide which skill type(s) you're allowed to upgrade. It's super frustrating when you get bad trees in one type because you can get forced to pick garbage skills with no guarantee you'll even get enough of the right type of upgrade cards to make it to the good skills in the tree. I like being forced to mix things up, but it's really irritating that most upgrade cards railroad me into picking one type of skill.

[TheQuestion]

good reads

[Alpha and Omega]

It's mostly because the game was made on a shoestring budget which makes things like "game balance" impossible.

Random skill trees are just a way of "leaning into" that unfortunate reality.

The benefit is theoretically replayablity.

Unfortunately, in practice some skills are completely useless, some skills are godlike, and you have no control over which ones you get.

It would be better if "gift" cards just gave you a skill or a choice of 1 to 3 random skills. That's what is happening in practice, and having an actual tree doesn't seem to add anything except misleading players about how the system actually works.

Failing that, skills should be assigned a "tier" based on how good they are and placed in skill trees accordingly.

[Fhoenix]

Replayability is not theoretical. Game is very much replayable.

There nothing wrong with unbalanced skills in a single player game. I'd rather feel like a god after gettting a godly skill, then play a game where every skill gives a small boring bonus, because everything must be balanced.

And there is rather a lot of control over which ones you will get. Every time I start a game I look up the trees and decide a direction to move in them and plan how far I can realistically reach. You would not be able to do that if you had a random selection. The one annoying thing is that you have to do this tree look up every game which wastes time.

Agreed that shops that only allow to buy in one skill tree are limiting, I would prefer to have more choice in the shop.

[Alpha and Omega]

Originally posted by Fhoenix:

There nothing wrong with unbalanced skills in a single player game.

You're conflating balance as it applies to multiplayer games with balance as it applies to a single player game.

Balanced skills in singleplayer means that every skill is highly effective if used well, not that they have small boring bonuses. It means that every option is viable, not that most options are pointless (which is arguably the case now, and in the scenario you descirbe).

It means that when you have multiple skill choices availiable, you want to pick every choice. Instead at the moment most skills are really bad and you pick the least useless skill except sometimes where it's a no brainer and you pick a skill that is far better.

[Awakened Gamer]

Originally posted by Alpha and Omega:

Originally posted by Fhoenix:

There nothing wrong with unbalanced skills in a single player game.

You're conflating balance as it applies to multiplayer games with balance as it applies to a single player game.

Balanced skills in singleplayer means that every skill is highly effective if used well, not that they have small boring bonuses. It means that every option is viable, not that most options are pointless (which is arguably the case now, and in the scenario you descirbe).

It means that when you have multiple skill choices availiable, you want to pick every choice. Instead at the moment most skills are really bad and you pick the least useless skill except sometimes where it's a no brainer and you pick a skill that is far better.

I didnt see any unbalances in the skill trees, they all have their uses.

[Fhoenix]

But every skill is viable. You can finish the game with any of them. It's just that some of them are much better than others. And better is always relative. For something to be really really good, something must be really really bad.
Most skills are quite okay, it's just that since skill points are very limited you aim for the best nodes in the tree and everything else is just a bonus

[Awakened Gamer]

Originally posted by Fhoenix:

But every skill is viable. You can finish the game with any of them. It's just that some of them are much better than others. And better is always relative. For something to be really really good, something must be really really bad.
Most skills are quite okay, it's just that since skill points are very limited you aim for the best nodes in the tree and everything else is just a bonus

Also regardless of how much more useful a skill is, it may not be very useful for your playstyle and usually people do better with the playstyle they enjoy.

[Clever Plays]

Hi guys,

Interesting conversation!

To quickly jump in, skill trees are randomly determined in Leap of Fate simply because this is a roguelite. Random generation of content, and game-to-game variation, are key for this genre and so we applied it to skill trees also.

The intended result is that you can never expect to build your character in a specific way. Instead, you have to adapt to whatever skills are available during a given run. Sometimes, you'll get an OP run. Sometimes, you'll get a bad run. Most of the time, you'll get a mix and catch yourself thinking that if you just had this one other skill that you like, you'd be able to kick so much butt this run. In other words, randomization is there to make it exciting, and avoids that you find your preferred build, and always do that. Exact same thing as with items in the Binding of Isaac or Risk of Rain, for example.

Yes, some skills are overall stronger than others and some are weaker. That's true and that's on purpose. But all skills can be good in some contexts (ex: which character you're playing, what other skills you have, what style of player you are, etc). If every skill was perfectly useful and desirable in all situations, choice and variation would be an illusion, and a whole part of gameplay would vanish.

Anyway, hope you enjoy thinking about our skill trees. :-)

[Awakened Gamer]

Originally posted by Clever-Plays:

Hi guys,

Interesting conversation!

To quickly jump in, skill trees are randomly determined in Leap of Fate simply because this is a roguelite. Random generation of content, and game-to-game variation, are key for this genre and so we applied it to skill trees also.

The intended result is that you can never expect to build your character in a specific way. Instead, you have to adapt to whatever skills are available during a given run. Sometimes, you'll get an OP run. Sometimes, you'll get a bad run. Most of the time, you'll get a mix and catch yourself thinking that if you just had this one other skill that you like, you'd be able to kick so much butt this run. In other words, randomization is there to make it exciting, and avoids that you find your preferred build, and always do that. Exact same thing as with items in the Binding of Isaac or Risk of Rain, for example.

Yes, some skills are overall stronger than others and some are weaker. That's true and that's on purpose. But all skills can be good in some contexts (ex: which character you're playing, what other skills you have, what style of player you are, etc). If every skill was perfectly useful and desirable in all situations, choice and variation would be an illusion, and a whole part of gameplay would vanish.

Anyway, hope you enjoy thinking about our skill trees. :-)

Yea I agree but I have a question for you guys, do you plan on any more updates or a sequel? If your updating could you please consider some art for the sidebars please?:)

[Dreznin]

Some skills, like Fast Learner, are useless if they are far down a tree. It's sad that some skills are like that - it would be nice if those which must be taken early could be coded to always be within 3-4 upgrades so they are at least obtainable by mid-game. Either that, or have a random selection of skills on each tree and have some not appear in some runs - that way, you don't have paths that get dead-ended by early-game skills and block off builds. Just a thought.