Liu Bei forever.

[Dopefisher]

With that being said, I miss good old ROTK XI lol.

[Caelus]

hmm, i think everything would have ended up the same, because china kept splitting and fracturing each time after anyway and it never stayed together even after unification. that would always have happened because it seems it was baked into their culture to keep splitting apart and reunifying.

[VeilStrider]

I can agree with that.

"Domains under heaven, after a long period of division, tend to unite; after a long period of union, tends to divide."

[[S.A.S]sephchan]

Lizardman Priestess님이 먼저 게시:

P.S.S. It's a romantic tale!

Who the ♥♥♥♥ are you talking to?
And why are you trying to pretend you know what you're talking about?
0/10 for trying

[Caelus]

yis, its a epic love story of a love triangle.

liu bei loved cao cao, but senpai never noticed him and was more interested in having hot steamy romance with sun jian.

eventually upon jians death liu ran off to join sun quan to pretend he loved him and wanted hot steamy romance to make cao cao jealous. cao cao seeing he missed out on his one true love wanted liu bei back and so pursued him across all of china.

meanwhile, zhu-g-a-y-liang saw this lovers traingle and decided to keep all sides apart and spread rumours of each side to make it so all rulers loved each other and was torn and confused between each other, spiraling china into the mess of a love triangle called the romance of the three kingdoms! lol

coming soon, to a musical theatre near you!

[Gopher]

The fact of the matter is Chineses history is bad ass. The end!

[I'm gaming]

Caprontos님이 먼저 게시:

And he lost..He only won because he had Zhuge Liang - who could beat Cao Cao, if not for him he'd of died not acomplishing much. Then he didn't listen to Zhuge Liang when it really mattered and threw away his chance to save the Han, for personal reasons.

Hence he got in to a winning postion, and threw it away. That's pretty dumb. His head also seems to have grown as Zhuge Liang gained him victories.. And he lost track of what he was doing.. A great leader doesn't do that, but is always able to see the big picture.

No. He won against commanders of Cao Cao before he met Zhuge Liang. And when he won against Cao Cao, Zhuge Liang supported him outside of battlefield. Lu Xun, who defeated Liu Bei, said "Liu Bei is famous all over the world and even Cao Cao feared him. Now he comes through border, it is hard to deal with."(劉備天下知名，曹操所憚，今在境界，此彊對也。)

People like Cao Cao, Zhou Yu, Lu Xun considered Liu Bei as hero and feard him. Did you live at that age with them? Are you a famous historian majored in military history? Who are you? How much do you know about Liu Bei?

[VeilStrider]

Huh?

From your statement, you think Liu Bei had accomplished enough. Going by that logic, then Cao Cao who conquered two-third of China mainland had accomplished more.

Fact is, he never gained greater things more than Shu. He never was able to shake Middle Land, he even lost Xiaoting against Lu Xun. Cao Cao or Lu Xun could consider him as a hero, but it doesn't mean he is considered as the victor.

[I'm gaming]

zeroxxx님이 먼저 게시:

Liu Bei was a fool. Without taking into account of REAL history which cannot be verified 100%, I can confidently say so.

He launched an attack into Wu territory solely for avenging Guan Yu. Instead of dealing with Wei, he chose personal vendetta even when all of his advisors (like Zhuge) including commanders like Zhao Yun. Guess what, he lost his best commanders at that time like Huang Zhong due to his lack of ability to make strategy and recognize enemy's tactics. Hello Lu Xun. Granted, Zhang Bao and Guan Xing were enough decent replacements, but no one could really replace those dead commanders in Xiao Ting.

If he could reduce Wei, Wu could be dealt with easily with resources acquired from Middle Land. But no, he let his feelings over logic.

He only was able to gain Shu because of his followers, and not because of his efforts.

Wu took many territories of Shu, and many local nobles and babarians helped Liu Bei when he launched attack against Wu. Those territories were conquered by Wu recently, and there was a chance for Liu Bei to retake those. Wu even lost its best commander before the war. Cao Cao died recently, so that Wei couldn't intervene quickly. Border between Shu and Wei was very hard to go through for both of them. The problem is, Lu Xun had nearly no name but was a great commander. Who could know about presence of Lu Xun?

Liu Bei fought and survied many battles, and everyone knew about how great he was. Before he got Zhuge Liang, people considered Liu Bei as the only one who could stand against Cao Cao. He himself was a great leader at that time.

[I'm gaming]

zeroxxx님이 먼저 게시:

Huh?

From your statement, you think Liu Bei had accomplished enough. Going by that logic, then Cao Cao who conquered two-third of China mainland had accomplished more.

Fact is, he never gained greater things more than Shu. He never was able to shake Middle Land, he even lost Xiaoting against Lu Xun. Cao Cao or Lu Xun could consider him as a hero, but it doesn't mean he is considered as the victor.

I didn't say that Liu Bei was better than Cao Cao. Well, that great Cao Cao even considered Liu Bei as powerful enemy before he got Shu. Cao Cao lead his best troops and launched attack soley to kill Liu Bei, as he knew that Liu Bei was the greatest obstacle to unite China.

Liu Bei took Xu from Cao Cao and defeated his commanders. When Cao Cao fought against Yuan Shao, Liu Bei lead guerilla at middleland, so that Cao Cao detached Cao Ren, who was the best commander of Cao Cao. At Hanzhong(A.D. 218), Liu Bei defeated Cao Cao, and it was the first defeat of Cao Cao at land battle after A.D. 194. Who can say that Liu Bei never shook middleland of China?

[VeilStrider]

The only thing that close to shaking Middleland was Guan Yu after capturing Fancheng. Hanzhong was just a border with Chang An.

The problem with Liu Bei that you described yourself, he never managed to accomplish more. When he was wandering around middleland, he was never more than skin disease a.k.a guirella. He had the chances to do so when he got some possessions of regions like Xizhou, but he always lost his chances.

It was only after Zhuge Liang followed him that he got some stability.

[I'm gaming]

zeroxxx님이 먼저 게시:

The only thing that close to shaking Middleland was Guan Yu after capturing Fancheng. Hanzhong was just a border with Chang An.

The problem with Liu Bei that you described yourself, he never managed to accomplish more. When he was wandering around middleland, he was never more than skin disease a.k.a guirella. He had the chances to do so when he got some possessions of regions like Xizhou, but he always lost his chances.

It was only after Zhuge Liang followed him that he got some stability.

House of Yuan was one of the best house in that age. House of Cao was also a great house. When Cao Cao started his great campaign, he could get 5,000 troops with his own money and many relatives from House of Cao helped him.

Liu Bei? Though his ancestor was Emperor, one of his ancestor lost his title and Liu bei succeeded nothing. He made his own bread with making shoes and mats. He wasn't more than a gang leader when he started his campaign. How can you compare him with other guys who started with many troops, money, and even territories? He fought against many powerful enemies with bare hands, but he finally achieved his own country and turned over the crown to his son safely.

[VeilStrider]

Because he failed to seize the chance when he got it - he didn't have enough planning prowess. Liu Bei was capable enough commander in battlefield, no doubt about it, but lacking in planning. Cao Cao, on the other hand, never hesitated to seize the chance when he was presented with it. Remember Guandu Battle? A much inferior Cao Cao could triumph against a much powerful Yuan Shao.

Now for Liu Bei:

1. He had Xuzhou. Tao Qian literally gave him this region. It was quite rich and enough to secure his foothold, yet Liu Bei failed to hold it. He was able to atone for his sins though by advising Cao Cao to execute Lu Bu later.
2. He got a chance to get Jingzhou. Liu Biao said to him he could manage the region after he was gone. He didn't capitalize this even after Zhuge Liang advised him to do so.
3. When Guan Yu got executed by Wu, like I said, instead of doing what was 'right', he did what was 'wrong'. His commanders and advisers advised against leading campaign for revenge, but he ignored it. Shu wasn't that big, losing resources on that scale would be unprecedented.

Those three were Liu Bei's biggest mistakes.

Indeed Cao Cao and Sun Quan also had their mistakes, but never up to this level. Cao Cao made HUGE tactical mistake when he was in Red Cliff, but Middle Land was so powerful so losing so many troops on that particular battle wasn't even a problem. Sun Quan always played it safe, hence he was never in the head of conquering China, but enough to hold his own territory.

[I'm gaming]

zeroxxx님이 먼저 게시:

Because he failed to seize the chance when he got it - he didn't have enough planning prowess. Liu Bei was capable enough commander in battlefield, no doubt about it, but lacking in planning. Cao Cao, on the other hand, never hesitated to seize the chance when he was presented with it. Remember Guandu Battle? A much inferior Cao Cao could triumph against a much powerful Yuan Shao.

Now for Liu Bei:

1. He had Xuzhou. Tao Qian literally gave him this region. It was quite rich and enough to secure his foothold, yet Liu Bei failed to hold it. He was able to atone for his sins though by advising Cao Cao to execute Lu Bu later.
2. He got a chance to get Jingzhou. Liu Biao said to him he could manage the region after he was gone. He didn't capitalize this even after Zhuge Liang advised him to do so.
3. When Guan Yu got executed by Wu, like I said, instead of doing what was 'right', he did what was 'wrong'. His commanders and advisers advised against leading campaign for revenge, but he ignored it. Shu wasn't that big, losing resources on that scale would be unprecedented.

Those three were Liu Bei's biggest mistakes.

Indeed Cao Cao and Sun Quan also had their mistakes, but never up to this level. Cao Cao made HUGE tactical mistake when he was in Red Cliff, but Middle Land was so powerful so losing so many troops on that particular battle wasn't even a problem. Sun Quan always played it safe, hence he was never in the head of conquering China, but enough to hold his own territory.

I never said that Cao Cao was bad or Liu Bei was better than him. Cao Cao was the best leader in that age. But even Cao Cao said 'Should I retreat?' to Xun Yu when he fought against Yuan Shao at Guandu. Xun Yu supported Cao Cao sincerely and lead him to victory. Cao Cao was just one of many warlords before he got Xun Yu, but after he got Xun Yu(A.D. 191), he started to rise. No one can be a victor without good subordinates. After Cao Cao lost Xun Yu(Cao Cao relegated Xun Yu, the best subordinate of Cao Cao, and Xun Yu died in despondency.), he failed most of campaigns.

1. When Liu Bei took Xu, he soley fought against Yuan Shu, who was the only one who stood against Yuan Shao. After one month of battle, Lu Bu betrayed and Liu Bei lost Xu. The circumstance was very bad.
2. If he took Xiāngyáng, he must soley fight against Cao Cao. There were no assurance for him to take officers and troops without residence. Liu Bei knew the attack of Cao Cao very late. Taking Xiāngyáng safely and gathering enough troops to fight was nearly impossible. Liu Bei successed not to take Xiāngyáng, not failed to take Xiāngyáng. And after that, Liu Bei allied with Wu and defeated Cao Cao.
3. Wu took many territories of Shu, and many local nobles and babarians helped Liu Bei when he launched attack against Wu. Those territories were conquered by Wu recently, and there was a chance for Liu Bei to retake those. Wu even lost its best commander before the war. Cao Cao died recently, so that Wei couldn't intervene quickly. Border between Shu and Wei was very hard to go through for both of them. The problem is, Lu Xun had nearly no name but was a great commander. Who could know about presence of Lu Xun?

And after Liu Bei failed his campaign against Wu, he maintained Yi and successfully turned over the throne to his son. After the battle of red cliff, Cao Cao lost most of Jing.

[Caprontos]

I'm gaming님이 먼저 게시:

No. He won against commanders of Cao Cao before he met Zhuge Liang. And when he won against Cao Cao, Zhuge Liang supported him outside of battlefield. Lu Xun, who defeated Liu Bei, said "Liu Bei is famous all over the world and even Cao Cao feared him. Now he comes through border, it is hard to deal with."(劉備天下知名，曹操所憚，今在境界，此彊對也。)

People like Cao Cao, Zhou Yu, Lu Xun considered Liu Bei as hero and feard him. Did you live at that age with them? Are you a famous historian majored in military history? Who are you? How much do you know about Liu Bei?

I am just a person who bases an opinion on the way the characters are represented in various games + things I've watched + things I've read. And imo Liu Bei just isn't that great. I doubt you lived when they existed either, and so only have the same info avliable as I do.. But its fine if you like Liu Bei more, and think he was better.

As far as games go I still tend to favor Shu over Wei or Wu cause it has better characters, and usualy more intresting starting situations (in ROTK games) but non the less I prefer Cao Cao more to Liu Bei the more I do learn about the era...The story in general becoems a lot less intresting to me once Cao Cao dies.

[I'm gaming]

Caprontos님이 먼저 게시:

I am just a person who bases an opinion on the way the characters are represented in various games + things I've watched + things I've read. And imo Liu Bei just isn't that great. I doubt you lived when they existed either, and so only have the same info avliable as I do.. But its fine if you like Liu Bei more, and think he was better.

As far as games go I still tend to favor Shu over Wei or Wu cause it has better characters, and usualy more intresting starting situations (in ROTK games) but non the less I prefer Cao Cao more to Liu Bei the more I do learn about the era...The story in general becoems a lot less intresting to me once Cao Cao dies.

I read translations of official history about that age. Historians who wrote those books and people lived same age with Liu Bei considered Liu Bei as Hero. I didn't live that age and am not a historian or something, also can't find basis to deny them, so I just admire their opinion.

For Cao Cao, no one doubted about his ability about military, management, administration, planning, scheming, etc, and even literature. He was certainly a best leader in that age. If we must choose only the one who was the most competent in that age, 'the one' must be Cao Cao. But he also was cruel and didn't fit with morality of traditional China.