Kill-in-Shadow is bad

[Bijat]

the problem i have with KiS is low defense..

have no dodge/parry to speak off and cant bring it up with a shield or talents

have low starting armor...later 6..witch is still in light armor region..heavy armor gives alot more then 6...

ONLY real defense she has is okeyish starting health (nothing that anyone else witch high vit cant get) AND hp reg for 1% evry 6sec...thats about 2.2hp evry 6sec at 8...more later but...

sure she has +65%dmg if she starts in sthealth (woud not be to hard) and is wounded

and sure she gets less recovery and more dmg with lower health..but with a imped haste (-63 recovery) the recovery hardly matter....and sure the bonus dmg woud be nice but becuse her low defense keeping her below 70% is risky if she gets targeted

also her low accuracy dont make her better earlygame even if u give her a p 19accuracy wep (daggers) she only got 51...while most of my other chars have over 100..my main 120 at lev 8 and no precision while my main has 12..17 hit to crit and no ability exept wepon skill to increase it or finess...witch i woud advice agenst becuse she needs higher def from stats and dont gain any deflection

the lower accuracy is so low that the +65%dmg migh even be nullified agenst some enemys becuse she hits so infreaqvent and hardly ever crits (no aoe dmg from static charge & weapon abilitys)

and also with alot of wepon buffs the main dmg will not come from main wep attack but rather from secondary effects...pritty sure maby +20% dmg from stealth attack might apply and maby wound dmg increase (15%) and prehaps blood rage (+0,5 per 1% missing health)

and to berserker stance....maby doable in normal mode but higher difficulty it meens she gets atleast half her hp taken on a crit from a enemy..and those will happen pritty often with low defenses...so..no

so my conclusion is if you play on normal where she can be wouded full time below 70% health for dubble strike and even lower for more bonus dmg she can do rly good dmg but in higher difficulty she will die if she is targeted for a extension off time...no deflection + low defenses = she will be crited/hited allmost evry attack

so...if u have your main like tank and wanna micro manage her (to minimize dmg to her) she can still do brutal dmg but on high difficulty in the harder fights she will allways be unreliable and if u dont wanna waste tons of pots prepair for her to be dead qute often...and therfor i woud say using mainly tanky built chars in higher difficulty is the way to go...

but becuse u can do the highest difficulty solo her extreame dmg is not needed atall and she is more of a micro manage target that will demand alot of focus from your teammate aka minimizing ther dmg/buffing abilitys to survive...and even if u micro manage properly she still may get targeted for beeing melee/low armor(higher priority it semms)

i have not calculated vampiric strike becuse most chars in light armor and wielding 2h wep can easly reatch 1.3 recovery..even less if other stuff adds up..and u can hardly controll her life (to keep her under 70%) for dubble hit if u restore 14health per strike so then her only props is bonus dmg, low accuracy, low precision...sure if u coud keep her in berserker stance she woud have good dmg but 1 hit might reduce her to half hp on higher difficulty AND still she has low accuracy

forgot to say to anyone who dont know minimum recovery is 1sec..witch is not that hard to get close to with most chars with the right buffs

TL:DR

To low defense to keep her low hp to increase dmg & over 70% hp she dose less dmg then other toons

[Ichthyic]

you're using her wrong.

with her, it's the utlimate: your best defense is a good offense.

give her trample, and she will take out an entire group. give her fear, and her opportunity hits will be immense. give her stealth, and she can take out an entire map of enemies, one at a time, and suffer zero damage.

she just requires a different strategy, that's all.

frankly I liked her just the way she was. if she had defense, should would roflstomp everything.

as far as micromanagement goes, the entire GAME is all about micromanagement, as the AI is sorely lacking.

once you get used to the idea that the AI is a HINDRANCE, and not a help, the game gets a lot more fun.

[Dorok]

She is a bit tougher to play because as mention OP she has no Deflection, no Armor, and Parry and Dodge not that good.

In my opinion it will help to have a more tank character to play with her.

But at Hard I disagree with OP, she is playable and efficient. In my current play at hard, she works very well with main character pure mage, Barik and Erb.

The build I choose is probably not the most efficient but it's fun and solid enough.

As there's no 2H weapon user in this party I choose have kill-In-Shadows use 2H instead of a claw build. I suspect Claw build would be the best. it must be quote that for her 2H weapon involves 1H skill.

For now she is a Titan build but with 2 skills from Ravager:
- Leaping Death, used to start combats
- Dual Claw, so she has very often 2x attack for 2H.

Otherwise it's Titan skills:
- Taste of Blood, it's not much but it's a bonus that is persistent once I used once Leaping Death.
- Adaptation skills are useful just for the Health Bonus, 15%, 30%, 45%. Right now with 30% bonus and 20 Vitality she has 437 Health.
- Breaking Iron is a good option to lower Armor if useful.
- Swift Savage Strike is a good close range AOE attack.
- Untamed Might 1&2 means 30% damage bonus for 2H, it's unique and more than other companions or class.
- Otherwise it's free choice, there's various possibilities, for now I test stance Berserker Rage.

I start combats with her with Leaping Death if I can. I don't prebuf but if I can it's prebuf and her starting combat. Erb is casting Blur on her at start of a combat. Barik is casting Blur on himself and will attack depending of context, my mage has various starts.

From stealth it's usually Barik or my character that will catch first the agro, and for sure i believe it's a key. Kills-InShadows is quickly exposed with Leaping Death but it's important she doesn't get agro of most enemies, 1 to 3 is a fair goal.

With that build she doesn't use often skills and a lot standard attacks. Her health level need be managed differently than other characters, because she has a lot more health than other, and also because at 70% health she has 2x 2H attacks.

It works very well, and for now if my mage character lead the stats, despite KIS is 2H she is overall second in damages done, first in damages received, almost second in kills. She isn't the strongest character in this party, but she is fun to play, and she works well enough. But again she requires another character take first and a bit more agro.

EDIT: My main character (mage) took Arms 1 and even later after to have reach magic max number of slots, Arm 2. It allows a fairly good adaptability to resistances and then attack damages type.

Also I haven't explored yet this possibility but it must be quote that she has a unique option of using 2H or 1H and train only one skill, 1H. Against enemies with 0 res against attack damage types I'm pretty sure 1H will be more efficient. I get recently 4 weapons slots I think 4rth slot will be for a 1H weapon for KIS to try a bit this aspect.

EDIT2:
I don't heal KIS much, because she has a quite high health and that 70% health is a good goal for her (Dual Claw), she requires different reaction triggers for healing, 50% health is no big deal, she will get wound a bit more often and it's not a big deal. I use more regeneration spells, and my mage character use often Healing Aura with 2m radius to heal Barik and KIS can go closer to Barik to get healed.

Moreover Barik is a build more tanky so he has auras that could help KIS be more resilient. But overall it's no a main goal to have both combat close, it's just a handy option.

[Funken]

I used her as a 2her and she was super OP. Her HP was like 4 times any other characters. I also had her use spectral blur on herself and my PC use the elemental defensive spell in the mage tree on her. She was unstoppable. She did by far the most damage out of any NPC i've seen while also being near unkillable.

Her high HP is also OP because the healing spells and potions rely on % HP. She had OP damage, OP tankiness, and solid CC and utility. She was as close to a total package of OPness that you can get in a video game.

She's game breakingly OP tbh, i would have her kill bosses solo while having everyone else kill adds.

for reference, i played my first game on hard with her as tank, and i'm on my second game using barik as tank. barik is solid, but he is nowhere near as strong as my beastwomen was.

[Dorok]

4 time? You found a trick? KIS Vitality 19 with all Adaptation Talents, Health 530. Pretty good, but 4 times. Barik Vitality 19, Health 305.

For damages that's good stuff, but OP I don't see, what talents, what weapons. For one hit damages ok, not for sum. She is behind my mage character doing a bit of support but also having many AOE attacks. And I don't think she could compare to Verse.

I also doubt she could compare to Sirin/Erb/Lantry if their are build for damages. And for tanky aspect, I don't see either, more details are required. She is pretty good, but with a weapon build, she isn't OP at all.

[Funken]

You can doub't all you want. It sounds like you are playing wrong, I saw what I did, and I am seeing Barik being way less powerful in my 2nd playthrough now, he is surely playable with, but KIS made the game easy mode. I'm sorry if you havn't found out how to use her yet, but she is super OP if you do. I didn't have to try anymore after she joined my party. GL to you. Maybe think more about how to use your abilities.

Also her HP wasn't a "trick" look at her talents. It should be obvious how i got her HP that high to anyone who knows middleschool math.

I know math is hard to people who just want to complain just because reasons. You know. The game is hard because reasons. You know.... reasons!!!! Zerpa-zorp reasons It's not me it's reasons Zerpa-Zorp!!! Zug... zug... ug.....reasons ughhh i'm drownging ughhhhh!!!

If you want my build for her post me and i'll post it. I would have to load an old save though, She is freakin OP if you build her right though. She carried me until about 80% through the game through my first play through. Barik i never felt like he was carryin me. He's strong, but not a carry,

later edit *

honestly Right now it is paining how much Ebb is carrying me through an evil play though, becuse Barik can't. Meanwhile KiS can carry you through whatever playthrough you want from.
Honestly just find what fits you best. If you can't find a fit, look up a guiide. That's all their is.

[Dorok]

Well 4 time HP of other characters, it's saying you play all other character wrong, admit that with this huge exaggeration didn't prepared me well to not be critic. :-)

That would be logical you list the talents used + attributes + weapons types or claws, no need of any snapshot. I'm curious.

[Bijat]

i dont understand why u think barik has bad damage? with medium-high quickness he can have the 20sec dubble hit buff up 90% of the time and got 30% dmg increase from talents and with haste with a 1.5 2h he still got 2sec delay...sure not perfect but still good... and alot better then verse that have to rely on getting killing blows to do dubble blows.

and to be totaly honest in most situations KiS wont go over 50% dmg increase and if u play claw prob rarley over ~35 (dont recall exact numbers) and she wont get lower then 1.5smth attack speed with haste (my 2h main got 1.2 with haste)

the "problem" i see is that sure got high singel target dmg..but when grps are 6+ and all got huge health pools magic will still be better...if u go high quickness mage with haste they will prob have spell recovery between 1-1.2sec and can sling out alot of spells faster and therfor have more burst then melee

only way to make melee more op is to have all those wep enchants on them & haste..witch req alot of preperationand honestly exept the sage most followers are rather equal when it comes to casting spells (major importance is high lore)

I been planning on doing a melee/javelin/(maby bow) high lore party where i will train evryone in lore evry lev and cast super powerfull buffs...gonna be op ♥♥♥♥ when evryone can cast aoe buffs and buffing evryone only takes a few turns (the singel target HoT can be cast on evryone like aoe etc)

[Dorok]

Originally posted by Bijat:

i dont understand why u think barik has bad damage?

"U" it's me or Cubertt?

About Verse versus Barik versus KIS on damages point of view. I don't have neither clear explanation nor deep analysis.

But some points:

• Verse double weapon recovery time is a lot faster than KIS and Barik 2H Recovery time and KIS can't use double weapon and for Barik I don't think it makes sense.
  
• Verse: I don't know double weapon mechanisms, it seems involve more damages than weapon+shield, and 2H if you take care of damages types and weapon switching.
  
• Verse has instant weapon switching, not KIS and Barik. If you don't use Weapon switching a lot I'm pretty sure damages are significantly lowdown.
  
• Verse is hitting a lot more than KIS and Barik with 2H, so she kills quite more than both, and it makes her talents Killing Spree I&II quite more significant.
  
• Verse Lethal Opening is more free attacks so more damages.
  
• Verse Eternal Flame allows rather often exploit a weakness of one enemy at range, and not bother and focus back to another enemy when damages continue in parallel.
  
• Verse: Barik heavy armor penalizes him significantly, KIS base recovery time is a bit higher than Verse base recovery time plus Leather Armor recovery time.
  
• Verse: KIS Dual Claw make hits two times, and is working with any weapon, it is rather easy to reach relatively often, Barik has Clash of Iron for a same effect. I don't think they can balance the Verse Killing Spree 3 attacks.
  
• Verse: Barik Engagement Attack I&II is no match in comparison of Verse Lethal Opening because it triggers only once.
  
• Verse and KIS have a walk movement talent damaging enemies, not Barik.
  
• KIS: Blood Rage is a serious bonus, she is easy to have with 30% to 50% damages, easilly meaning an additional 10% to 30% damages.
  
• KIS stance Berzerker Rage requires attention, but it's 50% more damages when activated.
  
• KIS: Few weapons provide damage bonus for each 1% of health damage, from far KIS is more at ease to exploit it to 30% to 50%.
  
• Barik: Glory to the Bold is a serious bonus.

It clues for damages Verse > KIS > Barik.

Originally posted by Bijat:

if u go high quickness mage with haste they will prob have spell recovery between 1-1.2sec and can sling out alot of spells faster and therfor have more burst then melee

My believing too, but I have no experience of that. In my current replay, my mage character could, and with Leather Armor was quite leading. But I had no character to wear Heavy Armor so my character started wear Heavy Armor, and now for damages KIS took the lead.

My intuition is it's Sirin that could beat everybody if well build for damages. Also Verse would benefit not have Sirin in party.

Originally posted by Bijat:

I been planning on doing a melee/javelin/(maby bow) high lore party where i will train evryone in lore evry lev and cast super powerfull buffs...gonna be op ♥♥♥♥ when evryone can cast aoe buffs and buffing evryone only takes a few turns (the singel target HoT can be cast on evryone like aoe etc)

At first play, all characters was training almost only Lore, but it's really efficient only for characters really using a lot magic. It will just weaken characters not using much magic.

[Funken]

I just looked at my last save before beating the game on my last playthrough. IIRC for most of the game it was 4x, but at the end it was only 3.5x because I maxed KiS stam early. Certainly not a huge exaggeration. 4x was true for most of the time i used her.

I used 2h, to get these numbers i just put 2 points in stam for every one in might until i couldn't stam anymore than kept going might, then switched to finesse once i couldn't might anymore, and chose all the the +HP stats in the right side tree, which gives her really godly magic resistence when mixed with the mage trees spell shield that I would cast on her.

Also it's not that Barik has bad damage, but KiS has OP damage. She is broken IMO. Also verse obviously does more damage than her. I used a bow verse and she did almost as much as my PC until later in the game when the PC just gets crazy OP with all of the reputation passives and spells.

If you have a problem with KiS surviving use the spectral blur spell, if you have problems with her doing damage, IDK what to say. Maybe the left side tree isn't nearly as great as the right side tree. The right side tree is straight up OP.

"only way to make melee more op is to have all those wep enchants on them & haste..witch req alot of preperation" this is certainly one of your problems. That takes like two seconds to do before a fight. With how much damage KiS did, buffing her was a no brainer. you don't need to pre-buff every fight, just when the fight looks worthy.

For reference i didn't use the talent that makes her do more damage when wounded, but i did use berserker stance, turning it on and off depending on the situation. Using both seemed like overkill, and the stance seemed much better because you can turn it off when you want.

Either way I'm getting through the game on hard pretty easily with barik, as I did with KiS. This game really isn't hard. It seems like the type of RPG that you can get any party to work if you use them correctly.

[Dorok]

How the well you got 4x??? I already quote the numbers, KIS Vitality 19 with all Adaptation Talents, Health 530. Barik Vitality 19, Health 305.

KIS health isn't even the double.

It's bizarre I don't feel I play her that differently and she is good but overall, not more than Verse, and far to be as resilient than Barik can be.

Right tree, Titan is good, but I'm not that sure Left tree and claws is less good, need try it.

[Funken]

Originally posted by Dorok:

How the well you got 4x??? I already quote the numbers, KIS Vitality 19 with all Adaptation Talents, Health 530. Barik Vitality 19, Health 305.

KIS health isn't even the double.

It's bizarre I don't feel I play her that differently and she is good but overall, not more than Verse, and far to be as resilient than Barik can be.

Right tree, Titan is good, but I'm not that sure Left tree and claws is less good, need try it.

when it was 4x, i didn't use barik in my party. I used verse, lantry, and my PC. Also are you taking his bonus HP from the right side tree when you are making your HP calculations because my KiS had quite a bit more HP than that. IIRC he had around 600 hp or so.

[Bijat]

I have to agree with the difficulty at the end i simply soloed evrything with my 2h main with alot of buffs (on hard)

@ dorok i dont think KiS recovery speed matter mutch on claw build becuse with haste its 1sec anyway and with fast 2h its 1.3 i think?

[Dorok]

Originally posted by Cubertt:

Originally posted by Dorok:

How the well you got 4x??? I already quote the numbers, KIS Vitality 19 with all Adaptation Talents, Health 530. Barik Vitality 19, Health 305.

KIS health isn't even the double.

It's bizarre I don't feel I play her that differently and she is good but overall, not more than Verse, and far to be as resilient than Barik can be.

Right tree, Titan is good, but I'm not that sure Left tree and claws is less good, need try it.

when it was 4x, i didn't use barik in my party. I used verse, lantry, and my PC. Also are you taking his bonus HP from the right side tree when you are making your HP calculations because my KiS had quite a bit more HP than that. IIRC he had around 600 hp or so.

HP calculation? Adaptation talents provide the bonus directly, check the tooltip over HP in character panel, it lists all bonuses, HP shown is HP calculated.

And Barik doesn't have any special HP bonus if I remember well, Verse could as well get this HP I get, it's just not very logical.

[Dorok]

The more I play KIS and the more I play later combats with more advanced build the less I'm sure Verse is superior to KIS. The point is also I wasn't using often enough the berserk stance.

To try compete KIS in my current play I decided change how play my main character mage. I didn't stop use Heavy Armor because it's cool. But now this character has support spells for him only I use the accent increasing power of spells but forcing target is himself. So she starts combats with haste with something like 40% and 60% bonus, and can increase armor of 9+.

I'll see but I have doubts it will change enough, the Heavy Armor is too much a penalty.