How do you guys feel about save scumming?

[Luke]

Part of me wishes there was more of a checkpoint mode, and that you couldn't just save and load whenever you want. Yes, I'm aware that you can choose not to do so, but the fact that it's there seems to take away some of the satisfaction of "beating" the game. Because if you're constantly saving, what really was the challenge?

[600piecesof8]

Well, you wrote it yourself: Why decrease options? I assume you don't run with pizza, hat or worse both. Besides the whole concept of the original HL (and also mainly Blackmesa) was, that you replay a situation and learn. First you kill the zombie, the next run, you see some hidden barrels, but don't realise, the explosive barrel behind you. On another reload, you move that barrel away first.

Checkpoints were a necessity for consoles or to inflate playtime by marketing departments (like the inflation of collectibles in some games). But if you got the freedom of a pc game, I'd suggest to use it.

[Mike O]

Would it actually be more fun if you had to replay huge chunks every time you died?

[thray]

Originally posted by clowndog:

Would it actually be more fun if you had to replay huge chunks every time you died?

Very few people like that gameplay dynamic.
But if they like it they can restart the game from chapter 1 Everytime they die for all I care.

[600piecesof8]

Would it actually be more fun if you had to replay huge chunks every time you died?

Depending on your degree of masochism and your time schedule. ;)

As written above, I wanna improve on or relive a certain situation and not a whole section. Another example: In HL2, you had that boat ride. So what I did was, after being at the end of that ride, I backtracked as far as possible (which was really a long way) and did a speed race to the end w/o hostiles. Checkpoints are usually far more confused with backtracking.

[Luke]

Actually you can quick save and quick load. I have them bound to F5 and F7, respectively. You don't have to exit the game to save.

I'm not suggesting that everyone be forced to play the game in the way that I would like to. But yes, as someone who grew up playing games like Mega Man I have a certain affinity for memorization and skill development to beat levels and such, and being able to save and load anytime drastically reduces the need for that. I just think it would be kinda cool if there was a "hardcore" mode or some such which disable quick save/load and only allow you to save at certain points.

Perhaps I am a masochist to a certain degree lol. Another World is another example of a game I really enjoy and that game is brutally unforgiving and requires very specific memorization of enemy patterns, traps, and etc. So maybe it's just such that my brain is wired to think that way and I'm inclined to seek challenges like that, and that's something I don't really get from Black Mesa (or Half-Life in general), or any game that allows you to save and load at a whim.

Which is fine - not every game has to be the same of course. I'm just saying I think it would be cool if games like this could also cater to those of us who are seeking that kind of a challenge.

[Luke]

Originally posted by 600piecesof8:

I have a certain affinity for memorization and skill development to beat levels and such, and being able to save and load anytime drastically reduces the need for that.

Well, I think the opposite is the case. But I get your point. But you have to start at some stage and most people leave early then because of frustration. Despite the talk, only 5-10% play the hardest difficulty (which I usually do on a second go).

What do you mean that you think the opposite is the case? Can you elaborate on that?

[600piecesof8]

Well it is a question of character first of all: If you are a "tough character" you seek that challenge. Most people give up on it. Obviously your achievements would count more in a way and would be more genuine. Definitely an elitist's choice. - But in order to get the flock of sheep moving, you need to give them the option to do parts and improve on that.

[Peter Brev]

It is, but Steam is a tad bit older than Half-Life 2.

[Luke]

Originally posted by 600piecesof8:

Well it is a question of character first of all: If you are a "tough character" you seek that challenge. Most people give up on it. Obviously your achievements would count more in a way and would be more genuine. Definitely an elitist way. - But in order to get the flock of sheep moving, you need to give them the option to do parts and improve on that.

Sorry for being dense; I think I'm having trouble following the conversation - maybe a slow brain day lol.

So I said

I have a certain affinity for memorization and skill development to beat levels and such, and being able to save and load anytime drastically reduces the need for that.

And you said

Well, I think the opposite is the case. But I get your point. But you have to start at some stage and most people leave early then because of frustration. Despite the talk, only 5-10% play the hardest difficulty (which I usually do on a second go).

I'm just trying to understand what exactly you were referring to when you said that you think "the opposite is the case", first of all. The opposite of what is the case? You think that being and able to save and load anytime drastically INCREASES the need for memorization and skill development to beat levels?

[600piecesof8]

In short: Yes. Since you can practise exactly the parts where you fail and don't waste your time on the bit you managed until you fail. - Memorisation perhaps not, you are right.

[Luke]

Originally posted by 600piecesof8:

In short: Yes. Since you can practise exactly the parts where you fail and don't waste your time on the bit you managed until you fail.

In my view, being able to easily practice the parts that have a high probability of failure is precisely why there is less emphasis on memorization and skill development. You only have to beat each part once, and then you save. Once you save you're past that part and you don't have to worry about it again, even if you die again further ahead in the level. If you can't save and load anytime then your skill has to be high enough that you can beat all of these sections at a higher rate of consistency in order to beat all of them in one run.

[600piecesof8]

Repetitio est mater studiorum, so basically the repetition creates memorisation to me. I think maybe we just disagree on the wording. I fully and absolutely agree with you about "consistency", but not about the former.

Apart from that, I feel the HL series ain't Dark Souls or a game in "One Down" mode. So if you wanna improve the skill of a person with lotsa endurance, you are right.
But if you wanna improve on a tricky part in one specific game, saving is better - or if you wanna take the majority of players over a certain hurdle.

Personal example:
I suck at reaction based puzzles and if I had to do the whole Interloper again, just for that one laser puzzle with the spinning beams in order to get the achievement, I'd say f'off.
If I want a challenge, I go co-op or MP on a high diff. Now, I come home after work and just want immersion.

Thx for that interesting and different thread and conversation, but I guess that is all there is to say about it from my side.

[hedy]

I dont get the stigma with savescumming-- all it does is save time and preserve your patience for the game. Although, if a level is designed well enough I usually dont save scum.

[Chazmeister]

There are some really finicky jumps to pull off in this game and without being able to save just before each jump, I expect I'd have given up and uninstalled it by now out of sheer frustration. The game feels a bit too long and overly drawn out as it is, without having to replay bits over and over again.

[Tenjen]

Half LIfe Black Mesa but every time you die you return to the tram ride and its twice as longth.