Black Mesa proves that large scale mod projects are kinda pointless

[Zaxx]

Don't get me wrong, I'll be installing the♥♥♥♥♥♥out of Xen when it drops just like the next guy but I get the feeling that when it comes to its intentions this project is very far from the aim it set out at the start.

Basically Black Mesa started as an idea when Half-Life Source came out and that game was very far from what you'd call a "HL1 remaster" in quality. People wanted to see how HL1 would look like in Source with modern graphics so development started in order to achieve the goal HL1 Source failed at / never even attempted to accomplish.

That was in 2005 and as the years went by and the sheer scope of remaking HL1 became evident that original intention (the only interpretation of the mod that could be called "Black Mesa Source" in my opinion) changed: Source was no longer the shiny new tech it used to be and as Valve chose to leave the franchise behind what BM is / what BM should be changed fundamentally.

These days I think what most people expect from BM is a nostalgic return to the world of Half-Life with some interesting gameplay changes and a new version of Xen to keep things interesting. If you add how outdated Source is on top of all that what you get is basically a retro shooter where the graphics will only be able to shine in the sense that "wow, they achieved all this on Source, cool". :)

So the project that started as the pipedream to make HL1 look awesome became this retro thing where the gameplay and Source's physics stuff will be the interesting bits instead of the graphics. The cause of that change is simple: 14 years of development. That gives me the notion that it's just pointless to start huge mod projects like this because while in the case of Black Mesa the gameplay and Xen gave it a new purpose other projects might not be this lucky.

What do you guys think? Are you content with BM's change in goal or you still have dreams about how awesome it would have been to play "Black Mesa Source", the graphical powerhouse in 2008-2010 when Source still had its fair share of technical punches?

[Zaxx]

Originally posted by fuegerstef:

I have to disagree a little bit. I personally think that even the Unreal Engine 2 (and 2.5) was very easy to handle and to mod for. It still had Unreal Script and making levels was very easy. It started to get hard with UE3 where the polycount went through the roof compared to 2 and 2.5 and the materials (textures, shaders, etc ...) got far more complex. So mappers fpr UT3 for example mainly relied on rearranging the assets delivered with the game for decoration.

I don't know much about UE2 mods but I think the only one that comes to mind that truly achieved mainstream success is Killing Floor and even in that case they just had to leave the mod and go professional instead.

And that's my "gripe" with more modern engines I guess: you just don't see big projects reching the finish line. When it comes to older tech you see a lot of great stuff coming out regularly but when you get to stuff like id Tech 4 that stops from being happening.

So far I can only name one project out of all the large scale mods that I think turned every goal it had to reality: StarCraft Mass Recall. That mod is an amazing remake of StarCraft 1 and Brood War for StarCraft 2 but they achieved it basically because they could use the SC2 map editor well and they could use a lot of assets from SC2 and SC1.

[webcider]

Originally posted by Olde:

My interpretation makes more sense than yours. Nobody's asking CC to be their "personal developer slaves" and the fact that you equate that with producing evidence of progress is very wrong.

I don't understand why you think CC hasn't shown proof of progress.. they been more direct than other developers as far as i have seen. Blocktober and summer update was one of them. By the way i was directly trying to prove thats how you come across to people in your way of communicating. Look here i am not sure you realise but CC isn't a published development team they don't have financial backing by Valve. Early Access is essentially Valve's attempt at getting some of that Kickstarter money.. That said i have never ever had doubt about CC true intensions of finishing Black Mesa, and you know what Life happens its organic things changes.. people changes... i know as long as project has been going that you might feel slightly disturbed of the lack of progress, and it feels like you just wasted your hard earned money.. well tell me how i think when Descent Underground was pulled from my Library after supporting them. only to later figure out they decided to go silence and come back with a new titel which all us Early Access users are receiving when the early access gets reestablished.

But i see that i am discussing with a very determined individual and as such I hope your pressure on the development is in good faith and you will be satisfied with the end project.

Originally posted by Olde:

That's a blatantly ludicrous and offensive cop-out to shut down the conversation by immediately jumping to the wild and irrational overreaction of equating a request for evidence of progress and a timeline estimation to enslaving the developers. At best, it's an attempt to shut me up by painting me as some kind of villain. So who's really straw-manning whom?

Look here your right you voice matters as well as mine. But these developers could have quit a long time ago ... do you think people still buy their game on early access .. and they are just living like a dream ... and having fun everyday on the cost of us customers. do you think that their blocktober posts are just noise to make you feel they are working towards something but in reality they are sipping cognacs with nice ladies on the cost of there stupid half-life fans?`i sure don't but if you got some appealing reasons why you think so please do elaborate.. i will gladly listen to them.

[DIGITAL SPORTS]

Originally posted by Olde:

In terms of graphical fidelity, Black Mesa is essentially irrelevant in the modern industry except inasmuch as it represents as far as the Source 1 engine can be taken. The most cutting edge updates to Source 1 are still inferior to Unreal 4. The only reason to play Black Mesa is to see Crowbar Collective's interpretation of the levels. Source is buggy. It's non-cooperative. It's borderline broken. It's not only outdated, it's wholly obsolete. CC have put themselves in a no-win situation. By taking so long, they've assured themselves that the final result won't be able to compare with modern games. And by relying on Source, they've also assured themselves that development will take a long time.

If this game were an original IP, I doubt most people would care. The fact that it is a remake/re-imagining of one of the most beloved FPS's is the main thing going for it. Take the Half-Life name and the Lambda symbols away from it and you get a merely graphically adequate, buggy, more or less generic retro shooter irrationally being still developed on an obsolete engine.

I think you're looking at this too black and white. The point of Black Mesa is to provide a Source Engine, modernised interpretation of Half-Life 1. We were NEVER going to compare with modern games, BMS didn't even compare with modern games when the mod came out in 2012. That ship long since sailed, it would have sailed in 2007 as well!

What would you do on our position? The options we have pursued at the best ones for our situation. Working on another engine is not an option. It absolutely never was. Finishing the game quicker is not an option (otherwise we would have done that, don't you think?).

I think (well, obviously I would) that representing the best that Source can achieve is still a worthy goal. We kind of view our game as Source 1's swan song. A fitting way to cap off a remake of the original.

Originally posted by Olde:

What that translates to is Crowbar Collective have real jobs to be doing, not putting their efforts into Black Mesa, a side gig that incidentally costs $20 and whose early access lifespan can be indefinitely extended because who cares, it's not their real job anyway.

I work on BMS full-time, as do many other members. Lots of team members have families to support and cannot do so on the money from BMS alone. That isn't really a fair criticism. It's in our financial interests to release Xen as soon as possible and make it as good as possible, too. Why wouldn't we?

This criticism upsets me slightly because, on a personal level, the reason I haven't found a proper, full-time, properly paying job is because I care deeply about BMS. A lot of the full-time team members are the same. It's for passion over anything else. I struggle for this game, so please don't assume we're not working hard or putting effort into this just because you think we've been too slow.

Originally posted by Geronimo:

Bigger projects have been done with the same size team while asking for a $20 price tag. If this was still a free mod I would accept such excuses Olde. But no they demand a price point and they deserve every bit of criticism until they finish the product they promised to deliver.

Every project is different. Criticise us, that's fine, but don't do so using what other teams have accomplished. Our circumstances are pretty much one-off as far as game development goes. I can't think of any comparable project.

[Just Chill]

Originally posted by Zaxx:

The reality is though that if you look at the landscape of these projects a large portion of them fail because it takes such a large amount of time to finish them that they just never get finished. A lot of people start modding because they want to be game developers so they just can't work on one project for a decade.

Agreed.
I also know about a few other Skyrim TCs that went to dust.

Yet, I don't see how their fail has something to do with Black Mesa.
Despite of being very bad when it comes to giving away release dates, this game is still in developement and not abandonded.

[Zaxx]

Originally posted by Just Chill:

Yet, I don't see how their fail has something to do with Black Mesa.

It's easy: Black Mesa failed as a mod project. Why you might ask? Because the release we are waiting for now is not a mod, it's a full game developed for the Source engine. The project needed to be its own thing and it needed to become a commercial product in order to be completed and I think even the devs themselves admitted that Xen would not be possible in the free mod format.

So the mod "died" in 2012, that's as far as they got with it.

[DIGITAL SPORTS]

Originally posted by Zaxx:

It's easy: Black Mesa failed as a mod project. Why you might ask? Because the release we are waiting for now is not a mod, it's a full game developed for the Source engine. The project needed to be its own thing and it needed to become a commercial product in order to be completed and I think even the devs themselves admitted that Xen would not be possible in the free mod format.

So the mod "died" in 2012, that's as far as they got with it.

That feels a bit like an exercise in pedantry, but I do agree with you. Xen would never have seen the light of day without the project going commercial. It wouldn't have even made it out the gate in a crippled, poorly designed form; let alone the beefy, awesome monster that it is today. It's as simple as that. So if you want to keep things as close to their definition as possible, I suppose what you say is true.

[Just Chill]

Well I see it otherwise.

The mod isn't dead, as it is still available on ModDB.
You just have to consider it "as is", simply as there won't be any update or additional Xen content available as the engine doesn't provide the necessary support.

This is openly written in the FAQ.

And as Chon said himself, going retail was the only option to get hands on the engine aspects they needed for Xen.



Black Mesa on Steam is... Well if it is a mod, then it is a paid mod. And I don't like the phrase "paid mod", as it associates sooooo much negativity as of the previous happenings around "paid mods" regarding Bethesda and Steam.

For me, it's a remake of Half-Life 1. A properly port to the source engine, what Half-Life: Source failed to do.
Yeah, it started as a mod project and the mod itself is a good sneak preview for what you get when you buy the retail version.

Even better, it's a demo of a downgraded version of 80% of the game.
The last 20% can only be played on the retail version. Fair enough, especially for 18 bucks.



I mean which demo gives you 80% of the game (even if it is a bit of a downgraded version)?

[thray]

Originally posted by Just Chill:

Black Mesa on Steam is... Well if it is a mod, then it is a paid mod.

Black Mesa on Steam is not a mod, that's settled history.
Black Mesa is a game. The literal definition of a game vs a mod is that a mod has requirements outside of itself. Black Mesa has no requisite requirements other than having purchased Black Mesa. By definition, it is a game.

[FireFly]

Originally posted by Olde:

There will always be preferences for various forms of level design. Some people prefer that of Half-Life, a pretty clear example of a corridor shooter, some outside areas of Surface Tension notwithstanding. Other people gravitate to the more open level design of Half-Life 2 and Episode 2, wherein combat takes place primarily in larger spaces. And still others prefer an open-world, sandbox style of game. And then of course there are those who prefer cover-based shooters, battle royales, FPS bullet hells, FPS rogue-lites with randomly-generated layouts, etc. The corridor-based shooting of Half-Life, and by extension Black Mesa, is my preferred style of combat but that doesn't mean it isn't a relic of an age long past. In the current market, it is a niche style.

Well first of all that would apply to Black Mesa no matter what engine it was using, and would arguably apply to Half-Life 3 Episode 3 as well, assuming it didn't become an open world game or something. (I presume it was to be set on the Borealis, but have avoided Laidlaw's summary so as not to spoil any eventual release).

And secondly, what is wrong with making a "niche" game? The audience for a good quality shooter is still hundreds of thousands of people, even without the reach of a publisher. You suggested that hardly anyone would have cared if CC had made a Half-Life-like game, but surely single player FPS fans would have cared? Especially since we are starved for shooters that follow the Half-Life model of progression and storytelling.

If you like this sort of game, why are you not happy it is being made at all rather than (seemingly) bemoaning its existence?

[Olde]

Originally posted by BMS DIGITAL SPORTS:

Originally posted by Olde:

What that translates to is Crowbar Collective have real jobs to be doing, not putting their efforts into Black Mesa, a side gig that incidentally costs $20 and whose early access lifespan can be indefinitely extended because who cares, it's not their real job anyway.

I work on BMS full-time, as do many other members. Lots of team members have families to support and cannot do so on the money from BMS alone. That isn't really a fair criticism. It's in our financial interests to release Xen as soon as possible and make it as good as possible, too. Why wouldn't we?

This criticism upsets me slightly because, on a personal level, the reason I haven't found a proper, full-time, properly paying job is because I care deeply about BMS. A lot of the full-time team members are the same. It's for passion over anything else. I struggle for this game, so please don't assume we're not working hard or putting effort into this just because you think we've been too slow.

The intention behind my statement ("CC have real jobs to be doing, not putting their efforts into Black Mesa") was a satirical reductio ad absurdum that was nonetheless meant to illustrate the absurdity of using the "it's not their full-time job to be working on Black Mesa" excuse. I was basically equating such a line of thinking with "why should they even bother?" knowing full well that the team still does care about the project. What I was meaning to highlight, even if I failed, was how ridiculous an excuse that is. Of course I am aware that the team is very passionate about the project and that I know people are working on this in their spare time. So don't take what I said as my true belief, but try to understand my frustration when people use the "it's not their full-time job to work on this game" excuse. I find it to not only be a cop-out, but a consistent way to cut the development more and more slack and permission to remain in the dark. No, Black Mesa isn't everyone's full-time job, but that doesn't get the game off the hook. Countless beautiful and innovative mods have been made by people in their spare time, perhaps not encompassing greater scopes (as Black Mesa the 2012 mod is one of the most titanic mods I've encountered), but surely involving much fewer resources.

Yet part of me remains conflicted. I do feel that there is more than just a kernel of truth in what I said, even if it's not the whole truth. That's the thing about satire: it's intended to strike a chord precisely because there is some element of truth to it. Additionally, I do have a problem with stating that Black Mesa is so unique that it defies comparison with anything else. Such rationale is often used to quash criticism, suggest that it should be free from consumers' expectations, and garner support through nothing but words alone. You know full well about other mods and games that have struggled through their own extended development cycles. In my opinion, saying that Black Mesa is uniquely singular in the modding community cheapens the struggles of other developers and, in an unwarranted way, suggests that the same expectations for other mods and modders absolutely cannot be applied to Black Mesa. It's another excuse.

Obviously there are many legitimate reasons and explanations as to why the development has taken so long, and those with which I would sympathise. However, the two stated above ( "it's not their full-time job" and "Black Mesa is in a completely unique situation") don't cut it for me. Firstly, they're hollow excuses. Secondly, they're pretty much applicable to any mod. Lastly, despite being true for most other mods, they've been overcome by many developers who didn't let themselves get weighed down by excuses.

[Just Chill]

Originally posted by watch this space:

Originally posted by Just Chill:

Black Mesa on Steam is... Well if it is a mod, then it is a paid mod.

Black Mesa on Steam is not a mod

Counter Strike 1.6 isn't a mod of Half-Life then?

Even if I agree with your point of view, I can understand why others see it as a mod.

[Catticus, Coveter of Snack]

Everything will be okay. Probably. Just believe.

[Zaxx]

Originally posted by Just Chill:

Black Mesa on Steam is... Well if it is a mod, then it is a paid mod. And I don't like the phrase "paid mod", as it associates sooooo much negativity as of the previous happenings around "paid mods" regarding Bethesda and Steam.

I guess BM would be a mod if it needed Half-Life 2 to run (though I guess in the case of Source that's not correct since they usually just need the SDK installed but you get what I mean) = a mod always needs the base game, once that's not the case it's no longer a mod.

[Just Chill]

But your topic says

Black Mesa proves that large scale mod projects are kinda pointless

I am all happy with saying Black Mesa isn't a mod, as for me it's a proper remake of Half-Life 1. A full game, that only lacks of the last levels which probably will be released next year.



But something here is now pretty contradicting. oO
How does Black Mesa prove that large scale mod projects are kinda pointless, when itself isn't a large scale mod project?

[webcider]

A final thought on the matter from me, first of all the "developers having other jobs than working on black mesa was a speculation on why it could take long to develop" it was not a fact.. as we do not know and either do i need to know what there life involves...

secondly i do not understand why its a wrong argument to assume either the first reason or lack of ressources, financial aid.. however even if those reasons are invalid and not the reason then it could be just that this sort of craftmanship takes time, there are studies that shows that a dedicated small team has a better passion and better understanding of the craftmanship they are creating, due to less communicative protocols. in anycase i feel this game is just around the horizon to be finished maybe not this year... but surely by the beginning or first quarter of next year... seems likely if you ask me.