Ending interpretation?

[Baby]

I would like to talk with people who ended game already. (It was amazing, btw!)
Did Fran really kill her parents? If she did, she was mentally unstable, I guess? Was she living in asylum before? (I'm talking about the part with small Fran) Is kitty dead (body in coffin)? :( Why he couldn't talk anymore? Did she die in the ending? Are aunt Grace and dr Oswald dead?
And please, don't say things like "you will have to answer it yourself", my curiosity is hungry for answers :(

[Highly Inappropriate]

Publicado originalmente por x.bananacorpse.x:

Also she can be mental disordered, but it doesn't deny the existance of 5 realities. Why can't those 2 theories coexist?

Because one theory excludes the other. Fran's disorder lies in her belief in these realities.
...and the game isn't really open-ended about which of these theories are correct either. (Given the topic, I'm not going to mark spoilers with spoiler tags.) As you play through the game, it becomes very clear that Fran is not insane. Would Fran be insane, she wouldn't have been able to return the key at the nurse's station, she wouldn't have survived the fall at the bridge, and she wouldn't have known personal information about the doctor.

[Bananacumber]

When i'm talking about mental disorder it's not necessary schizophrenia, actually i think that Fran suffers from split personality or something like that (idk how it calls properly). Maybe Natalia isn't schizophrenic at all, but she suffers from split personality by herself, in an interview she stated that she has some psychological problems as well, but it's not necessary should be schizophrenia, there was a lot of different types of diagnosis. We don't know what is related to Natalia and what is not. She stated that the whole story was changing through years, also that they wanted to adapt it to the game format, so it'll be playable. As developers said Fran Bow is a mix of personal experience and horror movies/games elements. I do not personally think that Natalia killed her parents, the whole "dead parents" thing could be fictional and was added into a story to make it more dramatic (or for any other purposes). As it was discussed before i do not think that Leon's diary, 5 realities and their inhabitants are just a produt of Fran's hallucinations. I can't say for sure where is the border between sickness and sanity, it's blurred, maybe that's what devs wanted to show us.

[Ayhari]

You are right friend. Both can be combined. When we see this document on the basement that says the gland is active and change duotine to ektoplomatin. (invented substance) file number matches with fran chart numberthey tell you that fran is part of the pineal gland research. You can translate itherstian to english on the twins mirro puzzle and says "master eye" which makes reference to opening a 3rd eye. In the 2 hr vid akd sorry for make it that long, we explain all tye research we made about the game even explaining that lr midnight doesnt talk but is fran herself trying to keep herself together as if her personality was split. ;)

Publicado originalmente por x.bananacorpse.x:

When i'm talking about mental disorder it's not necessary schizophrenia, actually i think that Fran suffers from split personality or something like that (idk how it calls properly). Maybe Natalia isn't schizophrenic at all, but she suffers from split personality by herself, in an interview she stated that she has some psychological problems as well, but it's not necessary should be schizophrenia, there was a lot of different types of diagnosis. We don't know what is related to Natalia and what is not. She stated that the whole story was changing through years, also that they wanted to adapt it to the game format, so it'll be playable. As developers said Fran Bow is a mix of personal experience and horror movies/games elements. I do not personally think that Natalia killed her parents, the whole "dead parents" thing could be fictional and was added into a story to make it more dramatic (or for any other purposes). As it was discussed before i do not think that Leon's diary, 5 realities and their inhabitants are just a produt of Fran's hallucinations. I can't say for sure where is the border between sickness and sanity, it's blurred, maybe that's what devs wanted to show us.

[Highly Inappropriate]

Yeah, given that her aunt says that Mr. Midnight was the one who killed her parents, Fran was probably "possessed by Mr. Midnight" (i.e. made Mr. Midnight into another personality of herself).

[flamemasterelan]

Grace also says that Mr. Midnight is a scapegoat, though. He's the traitor because they need someone to blame, and it doesn't matter who.

[Highly Inappropriate]

Publicado originalmente por flamemasterelan:

Grace also says that Mr. Midnight is a scapegoat, though. He's the traitor because they need someone to blame, and it doesn't matter who.

...and that may sound really cruel and evil, but if Mr. Midnight is a scapegoat PERSONALITY, then her aunt is actually talking about lying to protect Fran's mind, since Fran may not be able to bare taking responsibility for her own actions.

[flamemasterelan]

Publicado originalmente por Flibedi-floob:

Publicado originalmente por flamemasterelan:

Grace also says that Mr. Midnight is a scapegoat, though. He's the traitor because they need someone to blame, and it doesn't matter who.

...and that may sound really cruel and evil, but if Mr. Midnight is a scapegoat PERSONALITY, then her aunt is actually talking about lying to protect Fran's mind, since Fran may not be able to bare taking responsibility for her own actions.

That doesn't add up. At this point, Grace had already chained Fran to the bed, and was talking about having killed her cat because "it was a traitor" and that someone had to take the blame for what happened to her parents. The idea that Grace is sparing Fran's feelings/sanity is out the window with everything that happens in that scene, let alone everything that follows.

Additionally, if you subscribe to the belief that Mr. Midnight is just a split personality, that's cool. But you have to also recognize that Mr. Midnight is never shown as anything but benevolent towards not just Fran, but everything and everyone around her. Fight Club's ending made sense, because the Tyler Durden personality was shown to be an anarchist from the very first scene. Mr. Midnight, however, never even shows a hint of darkness in the entire game.

[Highly Inappropriate]

Publicado originalmente por flamemasterelan:

That doesn't add up. At this point, Grace had already chained Fran to the bed,

I wouldn't recommend letting unmedicated schizophrenics be unchained during the night - especially if they've murdered their parents after having switched to another personality - but hey, it's your life.

and was talking about having killed her cat because "it was a traitor" and that someone had to take the blame for what happened to her parents.

No, she said that Mr. Midnight "ran away after what he did". Grace is playing along with Fran's psychosis, to place the blame on an exterior cat, instead of a part of Fran herself, to spare her sanity.
The later killing of the cat didn't take place. It was part of Fran's psychosis.
1. The whole hospital is suspended in a void at that point. Fran is having a psychotic episode.
2. They found a cat in the coffin, remember? ...so how can you kill a (talking) cat that's already dead?
3. Why would they have any interest in killing the cat? To them it's just a normal cat.
4. How do you kill a cat by dropping it into a void, if that void only exists in Fran's psychosis?

The idea that Grace is sparing Fran's feelings/sanity is out the window with everything that happens in that scene, let alone everything that follows.

I think the bed scene was a pretty clever scene. It fooled me too.

Additionally, if you subscribe to the belief that Mr. Midnight is just a split personality, that's cool. But you have to also recognize that Mr. Midnight is never shown as anything but benevolent towards not just Fran, but everything and everyone around her. Fight Club's ending made sense, because the Tyler Durden personality was shown to be an anarchist from the very first scene. Mr. Midnight, however, never even shows a hint of darkness in the entire game.

Yeah, they could have made that a bit clearer, but the best hint is the queen scene. You see, the dark versions of Fran, are glipses of saner versions of Fran: She knows that Fran killed her parents, and she knows that "the cat did it". ...but since the cat is part of Fran, it's not really hostile to Fran. This isn't always the case with multiple personalities. Also, the cat may not be an aggressive personality. All it takes is cold blood to murder somebody, and considering the pentagram she drew on the floor during the murder, it seems to have been as part of a worship or a game. The Midnight personality may simply be lacking impulse control, unable to understand that knives don't go in parents.

[flamemasterelan]

Publicado originalmente por Flibedi-floob:

Yeah, they could have made that a bit clearer, but the best hint is the queen scene. You see, the dark versions of Fran, are glipses of saner versions of Fran: She knows that Fran killed her parents, and she knows that "the cat did it". ...but since the cat is part of Fran, it's not really hostile to Fran. This isn't always the case with multiple personalities. Also, the cat may not be an aggressive personality. All it takes is cold blood to murder somebody, and considering the pentagram she drew on the floor during the murder, it seems to have been as part of a worship or a game. The Midnight personality may simply be lacking impulse control, unable to understand that knives don't go in parents.

That still doesn't make sense, because Mr. Midnight had no "cold blood." He was a friendly, affectionate cat. Not just to Fran, but to nearly everyone he met. He never hurt anyone or anything in the entirety of the game, he was never rude to anyone, and he didn't even like it when he had to steal the ticket so that Fran could get into the bar. Your entire theory falls apart because aside from Grace, who was ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ crazy during the entire bedroom scene, there's nothing that paints Mr. Midnight in even a slightly negative light.

Like I said, if you want to say that Mr. Midnight's a split personality of Fran's, that's fine. But as far as what's written, Mr. Midnight is not a killer, and he couldn't have possessed Fran to kill her parents. Mr. Midnight represents love for Fran. Both the feeling of love, and of being loved in turn. He can't represent her darkness or her "evil," because he never actually presents those attributes.

[Highly Inappropriate]

Publicado originalmente por flamemasterelan:

That still doesn't make sense, because Mr. Midnight had no "cold blood." He was a friendly, affectionate cat. Not just to Fran, but to nearly everyone he met. He never hurt anyone or anything in the entirety of the game, he was never rude to anyone, and he didn't even like it when he had to steal the ticket so that Fran could get into the bar. Your entire theory falls apart because aside from Grace, who was ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ crazy during the entire bedroom scene, there's nothing that paints Mr. Midnight in even a slightly negative light.

I've had to deal with many psychopaths up close, and they're really nice and courteous people when they don't rape and commit other crimes. They know how to behave themselves, because that's how they gain social acceptance. In contrast, it's when you have principles like justice, that you become rude, angry and hostile towards people whom you consider to be "bad people". Psychopaths won't break a smile as they kill you. That's what "cold blood" means.

Also consider that Mr. Midnight is luring Fran away from the asylum - away from a place which I consider to be the only place where she can get help. As she leaves, the Midnight robot also somehow gets rid of the truth monster, so it seems to have some sort of unseen offensive capabilities.
...but yes, Mr. Midnight protesting "I don't want to steal!" isn't something a psychopath would say. ...partly because that would be "rude" to Fran.

Like I said, if you want to say that Mr. Midnight's a split personality of Fran's, that's fine. But as far as what's written, Mr. Midnight is not a killer, and he couldn't have possessed Fran to kill her parents.

Then why do Grace and Fran's dark sides blame the cat? They have no other reason to.

Mr. Midnight represents love for Fran. Both the feeling of love, and of being loved in turn. He can't represent her darkness or her "evil," because he never actually presents those attributes.

The lack of moral restraints and concern is a very liberating feeling to a person. It feels good and enjoyable. Why wouldn't a child love not having a care in the world? It's limitless, unconditional love. ...for her.

[Bananacumber]

About Fran being a psychopath...we can witness a lot of corpses of dead animals through the whole game. And if we'll look closer at Fran's behaviour she doesn't look freaked out even for a little bit and it bothers me. Most of those scenes that she's a part of, i would call them rather disturbing (blood, gore, dead animals). But look at Fran, she seems calm, like nothing out of ordinary is happening. As we all know manifestation of violence to animals in childhood can't be a good sign. Do you remember that scene in the woods with giant ant? He told Fran that probably his little friend ate Mr. Midnight accidently and what she does? She's ready to kill ant's friend without even a little sign of hesitation. Would you be ready to kill someone immediately to save your friend? I believe that you will at least question yourself before doing so. Also if we'll look at the whole Fran's behaviour it's mostly selfish. She does everything for her own purposes and only, isn't it something that psychopath will do? But at the same time i understand that Fran is a child and probably questions of life and death are not the same for her as for an adult person. What if she sees them like some sort of a game?

Publicado originalmente por Flibedi-floob:

Also consider that Mr. Midnight is luring Fran away from the asylum - away from a place which I consider to be the only place where she can get help.

For me it looks more like he's luring her away from the place where she's unhappy. I do not think that MM represents dark and violent part of Fran. I do believe that MM is some sort of a run from despair and loneliness, from that cold and hostile world of asylum. If you noticed he's helping her to get back home. I do also believe that home is some sort of representation of those days when everything was fine and Fran's parents were alive, when she was happy if we can call it so. Yes Fran has her aunt, but still she's a lonely orphan who needs a loving and caring friend. And probably MM is that part of Fran that feels sorry for herself. You know those soft and warm feelings like a cat
But actually MM is real. Otherwise the whole idea of Ithersda is ruined. Fran won't be able to go through it without his help. As we know it out of the game everything isn't so simple as it seems. Dead here, alive there. Real here, unreal there.

I do not understand one thing, why would Fran kill her parents? It makes no sence. I would understand it if we were able to find some clues leading to her hating her parents or having bad relationships with them, but nothing like that. When she talks or thinks about them her thought are full of maybe not love, but respect and adoration for sure. I can't believe that Fran killed her parents by her own will. But again it could be her other evil personality, i believe that here is that part where Dr. Oswald and experiments are involved.

[Highly Inappropriate]

Publicado originalmente por x.bananacorpse.x:

About Fran being a psychopath...we can witness a lot of corpses of dead animals through the whole game. And if we'll look closer at Fran's behaviour she doesn't look freaked out even for a little bit and it bothers me. Most of those scenes that she's a part of, i would call them rather disturbing (blood, gore, dead animals). But look at Fran, she seems calm, like nothing out of ordinary is happening. As we all know manifestation of violence to animals in childhood can't be a good sign. Do you remember that scene in the woods with giant ant? He told Fran that probably his little friend ate Mr. Midnight accidently and what she does? She's ready to kill ant's friend without even a little sign of hesitation. Would you be ready to kill someone immediately to save your friend? I believe that you will at least question yourself before doing so. Also if we'll look at the whole Fran's behaviour it's mostly selfish. She does everything for her own purposes and only, isn't it something that psychopath will do? But at the same time i understand that Fran is a child and probably questions of life and death are not the same for her as for an adult person. What if she sees them like some sort of a game?

One of the symptoms of schizophrenia is a stunted emotional life. I don't remember exactly how, but that may explain it, I don't know.

For me it looks more like he's luring her away from the place where she's unhappy.

She may have been unhappy at the asylum, but I think you're putting too much weight on caring about Fran's bloody-teared feelings, as if you feel so sorry for her that you don't want her to ever mature and be mentally well. I guess you're a woman, because that's female vs. male thinking. Fran would probably be VERY happy if she could roam around free, and even killing anyone she feels like, but ultimately she'd starve to death in a few days on her own. Whether they like it or not, some people are unable to take care of themselves, and even pose dangers to others, and that has to come before their immediate feelings, no matter how much "blood" they cry.

I do not think that MM represents dark and violent part of Fran. I do believe that MM is some sort of a run from despair and loneliness, from that cold and hostile world of asylum. If you noticed he's helping her to get back home. I do also believe that home is some sort of representation of those days when everything was fine and Fran's parents were alive, when she was happy if we can call it so.

...and let's say she would have gotten inside her house. Then what? Her parents wouldn't be there, there would be no furniture there, or possibly another family would be living there now, and God knows what would have happened if she would have climb in through the window herself. That could likely have ended with that family getting attacked as well, for being "intruders" in "her" home. ...so if her cat would be representing that, then it would be a traitor as well, because it would be representing wishful thinking. Fran's only real option, until she gets better, is the mental asylum.

Yes Fran has her aunt, but still she's a lonely orphan who needs a loving and caring friend. And probably MM is that part of Fran that feels sorry for herself. You know those soft and warm feelings like a cat :csdsmile:

I would have bought that, if the cat wasn't a creepy robot half the time, and if the cat wouldn't have chased away the demon/security guard. There's something not right with that cat.

But actually MM is real. Otherwise the whole idea of Ithersda is ruined. Fran won't be able to go through it without his help. As we know it out of the game everything isn't so simple as it seems. Dead here, alive there. Real here, unreal there.

Ithersta isn't real either. It's basically a psychosis helping her to get through a psychosis. Also, of course Mr. Midnight would "help" her. He doesn't have any malicious intentions or plans. A psychopath doesn't go around plotting evil schemes for everyone. He just doesn't care if other people gets hurt.

I do not understand one thing, why would Fran kill her parents? It makes no sence. I would understand it if we were able to find some clues leading to her hating her parents or having bad relationships with them, but nothing like that. When she talks or thinks about them her thought are full of maybe not love, but respect and adoration for sure. I can't believe that Fran killed her parents by her own will. But again it could be her other evil personality, i believe that there is that part where Dr. Oswald and experiments are involved.

The thing about being criminally insane, is that you can kill people you love without really "meaning" to. You can get a sudden psychosis or a neurosis, that portrays your close ones as threatening, or in desperate need of knife healing, you can simply stop caring for a moment, or you can be filled with a manic desire to play with their entrails that overpowers anything else. I'm positive that Fran loved her parents very dearly, and that her mind completely broke from trauma when her murderous episode was over. I'm positive that she wasn't angry with her parents. It may boggle the mind, but that's how a schizophrenic mind can work. That's why even the most innocent schizophrenic, should be either medicated or watched. I know people who have committed suicide during an episode, after having begged to be locked up to prevent just that. ...because it doesn't have anything to do with what they want or think in a SANE state.

[Sigh Man Vanz]

Publicado originalmente por x.bananacorpse.x:

I do not understand one thing, why would Fran kill her parents? It makes no sence. I would understand it if we were able to find some clues leading to her hating her parents or having bad relationships with them, but nothing like that. When she talks or thinks about them her thought are full of maybe not love, but respect and adoration for sure. I can't believe that Fran killed her parents by her own will. But again it could be her other evil personality, i believe that there is that part where Dr. Oswald and experiments are involved.

Agreed. I found the lack of any explanation of this central plot element to be extremely annoying. I don't mind a certain level of ambiguity in a story, but the murder of Fran's parents is at the very heart of all of her struggles (whether it's grappling with otherworldly demons or grappling with her own insanity -- take your pick -- both of those struggles were set in motion by the murder). Not giving us any resolution whatsoever as to who killed them or why left me really dissatisfied with the narrative. There was no sense of closure.

Maybe one could argue that the lack of closure is the point of the narrative. That we're just supposed to be happy that Fran has somehow learned to live with the pain of her parents' murder (and, by extension, the existence of cruelty in the world). But she really hasn't learned to live with the pain. She's just running away to the land of Ithersta where nothing much bad seems to happen. So at best, she's just taking the easy way out, and at worst there's a crazy murderer running around who talks to imaginary root-people. And either way, a narrative that fails to resolve its central plot element is inherently dissatisfying (to me at least).

Publicado originalmente por Flibedi-floob:

The thing about being criminally insane, is that you can kill people you love without really "meaning" to. You can get a sudden psychosis or a neurosis, that portrays your close ones as threatening, or in desperate need of knife healing, you can simply stop caring for a moment, or you can be filled with a manic desire to play with their entrails that overpowers anything else.... because it doesn't have anything to do with what they want or think in a SANE state.

Well put. That was my theory too -- Remor represented the darkness inside of Fran that she couldn't control and didn't want to admit to, so she just gave it a name and a separate identity as her way of distancing herself from it. I'm guessing there was no rational reason that she killed her parents (if she did kill her parents); like you said, she just did it, and now she has to come to terms with the existence of random cruelty in the world (which she never really does).

Of course, that's just my theory. And it doesn't explain how Fran knew details about Dr. Deern's past, or survived the fall down the gorge, etc. My real theory is that there is no answer to any of this, but it's fun to talk about.

Publicado originalmente por Flibedi-floob:

I think you're putting too much weight on caring about Fran's bloody-teared feelings, as if you feel so sorry for her that you don't want her to ever mature and be mentally well. I guess you're a woman, because that's female vs. male thinking.

Um... not well put. Both genders care about other people's feelings (and have their fair share of immature members); let's not traffic in stereotypes.

[Highly Inappropriate]

Publicado originalmente por Not-So-Serious Sam:

Um... not well put. Both genders care about other people's feelings (and have their fair share of immature members); let's not traffic in stereotypes.

Well, I'm a firm believer in stereotypes, and I was pointing out that that could be the reason why we can't relate to eachother's ways of feeling sympathetic toward Fran: Mothers are typically unconditionally loving parents, and fathers are typically demanding.

[I Kinda Fail]

I think that the scene with young Fran implied she was at the asylum from a young age, and eventually, Fran's parents decided they didn't want her to go anymore... I think Itward and Palontras and all that were real. I think the red pills were a sort of way to unlock a part of the brain to see stuff you normally couldn't. So other kids could see Itward, but as they grew up, they stopped being able to see him. But the pills helped Fran see everything. I think Fran's parents were potentially worried about their daughter, or maybe that she was still talking to imaginary friends at age 9(?, so they pulled her from the program and were murdered for it.

Every theory I've seen so far has holes, and mine is no exception...
What was the experiment, and why was Grace so for it?
Were Mia and Clara real? If so, who stitched them together? Itward or Oswald?
If we're to assume all of this actually happened, and Fran is alive in another realm, that sets it up for a sequel, because Remor is still at large, right?