How do you make a Good+ software in PM?

[OldGamer]

So I have tried with this new system. PM = Project Management fyi.

And firstly the effectiveness was rubbish as I didn't really know what to do. But upon reading the tutorial I got a new leader, made a new team JUST for that team as leader of the PM.

My PM team is a mixture of all teams.
Designers for design
Proggers 1 for development
Core for dev 2
Updates team for updates.
Support team for support
Updates team for porting team.

I have 150% development.
After I changed my leader the effectiveness was 100% all the way through.

And after 2 years they released their first product, a boring and horrible 3rd iteration of my 2d editor series (of which both have been Good and Great).

So not sure what to do. Unless it was due to the first leader's mistakes.

Let me know if you have any tips. Maybe I just need one team now called "2d editor team".
I would really dislike if you can't do just designers, programmers, artists etc like you used to be able to do.

Many thanks in advance
OG

[lembos-hauser]

A screenshot with annotations would help because I don't understand your team setting.

What was the creativity of the lead designer?

What is the average skill of your programmers?

Where are the artists?

Those are the points I can imagine being responsible for your bad software but I don't PM at all yet. I still do it manually.

[OldGamer]

Originally posted by lembos-hauser:

A screenshot with annotations would help because I don't understand your team setting. (1)



What was the creativity of the lead designer? (2)

What is the average skill of your programmers? (3)

Where are the artists? (4)

Those are the points I can imagine being responsible for your bad software but I don't PM at all yet. I still do it manually.

(1) I'll post in the post below.
(2) Think this may be it...she has 0% creativity but 100% inspired...To be honest I was only looking at leadership skill being 3 stars in auto and 1 in multiskill.
(3)
Proggers 1:
13 team members (really 12 as one is leader)
range age 33-47
2x 3 star sys prog.
2x 2 star 2d prog
2x 3 star 2d prog
2x 2 star 3d prog
4x 3 star 3d prog
1x 1 star audio prog
1x 2 star audio prog
2x 3 star audio prog
4x 2 star network prog (not in use yet)
2x 2 star hardware prog (not in use yet)

There are 2 artists in here - both 2 star 3d art (might be the reason!)
I do have 2 others whom have 2ndary as artists with 2x 2 star 2d art (what we need)

Updates team:
13 team members (really 12 as same as above)
These are more advanced than the above team as they have been here for awhile (about 3 yrs)

Number of members with stars "/" is the separation.
2x/5x/4x 1/2/3 star sys prog
3x/9x 2/3 stars 2d sys prog
2x 2 star 3d sys prog
1x 3 star audio prog (do have a couple 1 star audio as well)
2x 1 star network prog

A few artists here too with 6x 2 stars of 2d art/ 2x 2 star 3d and 2x 1 star audo with 1x 3 star audio art.

My artists eventually go into their own team. Usually when I start mass producing the 4 big softwares (audio,2d,3d & AV).
But this was on the points system of PM.
(4) answered above.

Just going through your points have helped me here, so thank you. I think the auto hiring messed up...or it just got 3d artitsts instead of 2d. Not sure how that happened but I'll investigate!

Plus not sure about creavity yet. I think last year I ignored that lol. And it worked better than it has now. I rolled back my save before the release just to see if I can scrape it back or if I need to start anew.

[OldGamer]

Hoping this works. I am not good with annotations. (you can see here, I did it the old fashioned way :))

https://i2.paste.pics/815d0bd055bd70c96fd0a399f4bb2431.png?trs=830406f170b1785cccb3cf7688890e537292f5d8281c74eecd19e41c0c0b58ef&rand=fCWHga0t8J

[OldGamer]

and another one - yes you will have to highlight and then copy into the URL bar of a browser as the website is blocking linking for some reason.

https://i2.paste.pics/90132584f7a3d86f45de6aa5d4b01039.png?trs=830406f170b1785cccb3cf7688890e537292f5d8281c74eecd19e41c0c0b58ef&rand=qbpxEhHk0T

[OldGamer]

Another showing the previous two which I did controlling.

Also showing my 4 founders if that makes any difference.
And really to use to show, I have 2 million in the bank but after this PM releases I go bankrupt within 2 months. Not sure why, other than the fact if it wasn't horrible it would have sold but my 2nd is still selling like hotcakes.

https://i2.paste.pics/d4c33347d2fb49dd391c40f48ecdf92c.png?rand=iQAwkEKWD7

[nosedigger]

I've written a Guide for PM, but sadly it is now depracated. I tried to learn the new one, but I failed. As far as I know, even the previous one had flaws, and giving them stacked teams 200% dev time, they would usually botch the quality. Because of that I used them mainly for support and updates, but even that came with issues.
My suggestion for now would be to stay away from PM, as this newer version is far from functional, and some things even I can't explain, and believe me, I tried.
My strategy is to have Designer team with secondary dev skills, and Dev teams mixed with artists. Design team after finishing the Design phase will join Dev team for Alpha stage, but once that is over, I put them on a new project, and that Dev team will fix bugs in Beta, do porting and Updates for a year or so, until next Alpha stage is at doors. With one design and one dev team, I can cover up to 5 products + Distribution platform, so it's super optimized. I might throw a Support team to handle calls, with dev skills secondary, so they can help out during Updates, and I might create a Marketing team, secondary dev also, when I start my own marketing. This way, I do not need PM, and Im guaranteed that every release would be Outstanding.

[lembos-hauser]

Originally posted by OldGamer:

Another showing the previous two which I did controlling.

Also showing my 4 founders if that makes any difference.
And really to use to show, I have 2 million in the bank but after this PM releases I go bankrupt within 2 months. Not sure why, other than the fact if it wasn't horrible it would have sold but my 2nd is still selling like hotcakes.

https://i2.paste.pics/d4c33347d2fb49dd391c40f48ecdf92c.png?rand=iQAwkEKWD7

Thank you for your effort to make your situation clear. I want to point out a few things:

1) Star level euquals not skill level. Mark all your assigned coders at once and look at the green or blue bar (one is design, the other is dev, red is art) in the background of development. It is somewhere between 0 and 100%. What I want to say: if you have 2 coders all three star because of big brain and 100% skill, but you fill up your team with 8 25yo youngsters, because the project recommends 10 coders, your overall skill is still prettyow.

2) I do it the same as nosedigger: Design team with secondary Coding skills and role. Works pretty fine.

3) having mentioned the player nosedigger: if he doesnt get PM to run and recommends not to use it at the actual stage, I would highly recommend to follow his advice. Don't use PM then. He is very experienced.

[OldGamer]

Originally posted by lembos-hauser:

Originally posted by OldGamer:

Another showing the previous two which I did controlling.

Also showing my 4 founders if that makes any difference.
And really to use to show, I have 2 million in the bank but after this PM releases I go bankrupt within 2 months. Not sure why, other than the fact if it wasn't horrible it would have sold but my 2nd is still selling like hotcakes.

https://i2.paste.pics/d4c33347d2fb49dd391c40f48ecdf92c.png?rand=iQAwkEKWD7

Thank you for your effort to make your situation clear. I want to point out a few things:

1) Star level euquals not skill level. Mark all your assigned coders at once and look at the green or blue bar (one is design, the other is dev, red is art) in the background of development. It is somewhere between 0 and 100%. What I want to say: if you have 2 coders all three star because of big brain and 100% skill, but you fill up your team with 8 25yo youngsters, because the project recommends 10 coders, your overall skill is still prettyow.

2) I do it the same as nosedigger: Design team with secondary Coding skills and role. Works pretty fine.

3) having mentioned the player nosedigger: if he doesnt get PM to run and recommends not to use it at the actual stage, I would highly recommend to follow his advice. Don't use PM then. He is very experienced.

Thank you for this. I think I get what you are saying. So it's a different parameter. I do "train" up my team with some older/experienced team members as to fill in the star requirements (and in-head game of they are sort of "mentors" for the youngsters).

I have since re-evaluated my teams after the backup load of my save game (before the bankruptcy after the horrible game) and have totally fired all my new proggers. And even the marketing team, apparently they were having issues with their workday being "night" even though to me 11:00 - 19:00 is not a night time shift IMO. But apparently it is in game so we got rid of all of them and started a new team. But anyway, the updates team is below, they are now my only code team. The designers are healthier I think.

https://i2.paste.pics/383c26b3809e26960467460f752972a7.png?trs=5793a1df7b8ff954429e61907ee8df92417e03bacd466477cc23b9b522c08332&rand=Sp7QuwiVW3

https://i2.paste.pics/87ba1e9689a3c861a0be97adbc11a04e.png?trs=5793a1df7b8ff954429e61907ee8df92417e03bacd466477cc23b9b522c08332&rand=Sdp6JWPgiI

I took a lot of advice from Nosedigger from several of their posts in this forum and just released an outstanding (my first for this year's play through at least) Audio tool, which is making a boat load of money (over 2million some months.)

Maybe next it is just to follow the advice in team composition with the designers being more prog based as they basically sit there doing jack until the coders release a product RN (right now).

But I am wanting to expand, I just need to a) move my offices to somewhere larger and b) not expand too quickly. I think that was my downfall last time. I have to continually have this rush to produce products currently as I know after a couple of months I am under.

It's a shame PM doesn't work though, a damn shame. I really wanted to get it in a position where they release the big four softwares and then I work on games or whatnot. Also see what this research business is all about as I haven't tried that yet!

OG

[lembos-hauser]

Research is kind of a game breaker. It costs a lot (you need a lot of lvl 3 designers) and the patent costs even more (lvl 3 law, at least 5 or 6 attorneys). But then, if you like get system every year, get 3d from the beginning, you will get like 40-80mil per patent of each year in total. And your tech is always top notch. If your game settings is "research aggressiveness medium or low" it is pretty easy to get the patent.

Always have in mind: each January you can start to research the new tech level of that year. But it is possible so still research 2001 tech in 2002 if you started to late. But chances are getting high that someone else will finish research before you.

edit: your skill level shown in your screenshot are not bad. They should be able to release a good or great product.

Just be aware: design phase is key for big software. Try getting past the third iteration. Start programming at 3,5 or so. Once you finished art ort code try one review and see if you need another iteration or not.

You can get a good software with just the first iteration in design phase but then you need several iterations during coding.

[nosedigger]

You are on a good path, but let me share my optimized teams setup:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3474363423
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3474363314

As you can see, Design team is stacked with 3* Designers, with secondary coding or art, and Dev team is stacked with 3* Programmers with art. However, both are System centric, and almost all of them will have 3* System + 3* other.
On the right side you can see that these two teams are responsible for releaseing 1 console, and 4 games. All are Outstanding/Visionary, where FPS and Adventure sell out maximum number of units, and my Console is currently top 1, shortly will overcome those initials from 1970-1980 that are "simulated"

[nosedigger]

If you are starting pre 1990, then all teams should be System + 2D, and maybe 1-2 Audio, if you are using those features in your products. After 1990, Network is added, and if you are not planning to do 3D Editor, or games, there is no need for those, because Contracts do not use that tech, but rather Sys+2D+Net
The only case where you should hire 1* employess in Coding is for Support teams that will also fix bugs, or Artist that has 3* in art, and Coding might be 1/2* across the board. Otherwise, you should stay clear of Designers or Developers that start with 1* in each category

[lembos-hauser]

Originally posted by nosedigger:

You are on a good path, but let me share my optimized teams setup:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3474363423
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3474363314

As you can see, Design team is stacked with 3* Designers, with secondary coding or art, and Dev team is stacked with 3* Programmers with art. However, both are System centric, and almost all of them will have 3* System + 3* other.
On the right side you can see that these two teams are responsible for releaseing 1 console, and 4 games. All are Outstanding/Visionary, where FPS and Adventure sell out maximum number of units, and my Console is currently top 1, shortly will overcome those initials from 1970-1980 that are "simulated"

Interesting and enlightening.

How do you hire your staff? "high salary" and "specialization in system" plus "secondary role art"?

How do you deal with the team compability?

[nosedigger]

Originally posted by lembos-hauser:

How do you hire your staff? "high salary" and "specialization in system" plus "secondary role art"?
How do you deal with the team compability?

Before patch that changed the Traits system, I hired always Generous+Optimistic, and all of my employees would end with those 2. However, that is still the best combo for Personalities, but now certain Traits are tied to certain Peronality, so my Founder Capacitator+SuperFocus would be Generous+Goofy.
When I try searching first for the employees I have to block Unphased, because it will generate a lot of those, which are not that good, so when I see first Generous+Optimistic, that is Capacitator, I hire him in another team. After that, all further ads will have compatibility set to that new team, providing me mainly Generous+Optimistic, which I add back to my Founder's team.
As for choosing Traits, I always check Big Capacitator, and block Stress, Sick, Bladder, and Forgetfull (aboslutely the worst Trait in the game, never hire them).

As for skill level, really early I understood that searching for Designer/Programmer with Medium sallary, will usually spawn 39+ year olds, that would have 3* in two selected skills.
And that way I compose my teams, as explained above. This is also appliable to Artist, because Medium sallary can give 3* Artist, there is no need for High sallary.
The most important thing is, that the game is rigged to screw with you when trying to find employees, so I always save before doing an add, because reloading can spawn better ones. It might be cheesing strategy, but I do not want to waste my in-game time, trying everyday to find employees, which I can do with several re-loads.

So to directly answer your questions:
I hire Medium salary, with 2 skill specialization, looking for candidates that has 3* in both of those, and then looking at the secondary skills, if it would be fit for another team. The only High salary I hire are Marketing team, when I start my own Marketing, and for Service-Support, because two 3* Support will fly through bugs reported, and even fix them on their own, effectively eliminating need for 10 support staff of 1*

Team compatibility, make a team of Generous+Optimistic, and regardless of what skill you look for, you will have pretty same Trait combo. Example, I hired initial designers for my Founders team that are mainly Opt+Gen, or Opt+Flirt. When I start hiring devs, I move all of the Optimistic/Generous from Core team, to new Dev team, and then search for devs against that new team, getting 99% of that Trait combo.

Also, if you have semi-compatible team, like Gen+Goofy, Gen+Flirty, Gen+FriendMaker, you should hire a team leader that have 3* in Socialization, and create Meetings office. Sure, they will waste 1h each day to do the daily meeting, but will gain small boost to speed afterwards, but more importantly, it will raise Team's Compatibility, and Bondness in the long run.

[lembos-hauser]

Originally posted by nosedigger:

Originally posted by lembos-hauser:

How do you hire your staff? "high salary" and "specialization in system" plus "secondary role art"?
How do you deal with the team compability?

Before patch that changed the Traits system, I hired always Generous+Optimistic, and all of my employees would end with those 2. However, that is still the best combo for Personalities, but now certain Traits are tied to certain Peronality, so my Founder Capacitator+SuperFocus would be Generous+Goofy.
When I try searching first for the employees I have to block Unphased, because it will generate a lot of those, which are not that good, so when I see first Generous+Optimistic, that is Capacitator, I hire him in another team. After that, all further ads will have compatibility set to that new team, providing me mainly Generous+Optimistic, which I add back to my Founder's team.
As for choosing Traits, I always check Big Capacitator, and block Stress, Sick, Bladder, and Forgetfull (aboslutely the worst Trait in the game, never hire them).

As for skill level, really early I understood that searching for Designer/Programmer with Medium sallary, will usually spawn 39+ year olds, that would have 3* in two selected skills.
And that way I compose my teams, as explained above. This is also appliable to Artist, because Medium sallary can give 3* Artist, there is no need for High sallary.
The most important thing is, that the game is rigged to screw with you when trying to find employees, so I always save before doing an add, because reloading can spawn better ones. It might be cheesing strategy, but I do not want to waste my in-game time, trying everyday to find employees, which I can do with several re-loads.

So to directly answer your questions:
I hire Medium salary, with 2 skill specialization, looking for candidates that has 3* in both of those, and then looking at the secondary skills, if it would be fit for another team. The only High salary I hire are Marketing team, when I start my own Marketing, and for Service-Support, because two 3* Support will fly through bugs reported, and even fix them on their own, effectively eliminating need for 10 support staff of 1*

Team compatibility, make a team of Generous+Optimistic, and regardless of what skill you look for, you will have pretty same Trait combo. Example, I hired initial designers for my Founders team that are mainly Opt+Gen, or Opt+Flirt. When I start hiring devs, I move all of the Optimistic/Generous from Core team, to new Dev team, and then search for devs against that new team, getting 99% of that Trait combo.

Also, if you have semi-compatible team, like Gen+Goofy, Gen+Flirty, Gen+FriendMaker, you should hire a team leader that have 3* in Socialization, and create Meetings office. Sure, they will waste 1h each day to do the daily meeting, but will gain small boost to speed afterwards, but more importantly, it will raise Team's Compatibility, and Bondness in the long run.

That sounds pretty nice.

I did a completely different approach in my recent run. Had 1 founder with generous and optimistic or opt and flrt. Don't remember anymore.

My first team members where design and Deb combos fitting into that team. Like 10.

Aftrr getting first real money I expanded and always startet the first hire into that pool but then send this new guy into a new team and hired into that team (comp-wise).

But now the twist: I go by pools. Having a big design and Dev pool, some of them are double qualified.

When my project needs 5 designers, I take 6 or 7 from the pool, put them into a "new team" with a 3* socializing leader and let them work.

Chesion and efficiency are good or really good because through the big pool team everybody knows everybody and gets along with them.

It is a bit tedious to swith the people all the time but as for now it works pretty fine. Literally owning 3D, audio, And phones to my studio. Flooding the market with 0$ anti-virus and starting to do great games with every year update to newest system 3d and 2d tech since is patent them every year the last 10 years.

[nosedigger]

Sounds legit. My only concern is cohesion and efficiency drops every time you swap out/add a new team member. That why I use only few teams, and every is specialized. For an example, if I want to branch out to Console, I would hire a team of 5 System+Hard Designers, and they will be either researching Hardware, or doing Design with the Core team.
But, sounds you got it figured out, I never claimed my game style is the best, but ofc I was accused of that several times xD