Why proper saves need to be implemeneted in this game (all SP games)

[Rick]

My unfortuante experience should serve as a practical illustration of why real saves (not checkpoints as implemented) need to be in this (and for that matter) and all single player games. I fought hard through 3 levels and was preparing to enter the portal room for the boss fight and I exited the game to have some dinner before the big finish. When I returned from dinner I found that the game suffered a catestrophic error and would not restart. It was doing exactly what others descibe in the troubleshooting section. As per the advice in the troubleshooting section I renamed the files and this got the game working again but all my progress through the 3 levels (including the checkpoint saves was wiped and I had to start the game again from the very start.

I fully understand the perma death concept and the appeal that has to the "hardcore realism" fans. The problem is that game errors like the one I experienced are very real and not just limited to games in alpha or beta. Allowing for saved files that are not deleted on death or the game generated similated death (ie: game error) will solve this problem. The Hardcore people can ignore the saved game option or (more wisely) use it as a back up the case of the kind of game error I experienced happens. I think this suggestion should be implemented and will benefit the game and the players (hardcore and casual) . Even the most hardcore player would be unhappy with losing days of play time due to an unrecoverable game error.

[White ⁧⁧Wolf]

-or- if you're paranoid about file corruption and whatnot you can always back up the saved checkpoint file(if possible). Just an idea. If lots of people experienced this error you speak of then it would be fixed quite quickly I'd wager. So really, just like before, saved games are not required.

[Parco]

next time you get this error you should report the error (with screenshots or video together with the error log (%appdata%/exanima)) so it can be fixed. ive played for countless of hours and not encountered a error that deletes/corrupts both the temporary and checkpoint save, so probably a rare case. which files did you rename?

[Bare Mettle]

If this is the error I think it is then you need to rename your Exanima.set file. Your saved game is in a separate file and should be fine.

The reason why we haven't fixed this problem yet is because, despite us asking, no one until very recently ever sent us their corrupted .set file.

[Rick]

The troubleshooting section for exanima here on steam. Please remember that just because it has not yet happened to you doesn't mean its not happening. There are a number of posts reporting the same problem and for every post you can bet there are 10 others who have the same problem and checked for a solution without posting. The files were : the log the rcp, the rsg and the set file.

As to the other suggestion that we should back up checkpoint files.... Are you really trying to make the point that as players we should have to manually create saved files instead of having a proper in game save function? This is not a permanent solution it is a stop gap. It is like the people who don't want maps who say you can use bottles or sticks. Yes, you can but it is a poor solution. A save function hurts no one but is a benefit to most players. I don't understand the mentality where just because you won't use a game function, you think the entire community should be denied access to it.

[Bare Mettle]

It's likely that whoever reccommended renaming the .rsg and .rcp files also renamed the .set file which is why it worked. Removing the saved games is an unnecessary step, all it does is remove your saved games.

[White ⁧⁧Wolf]

Originally posted by Rick:

As to the other suggestion that we should back up checkpoint files.... Are you really trying to make the point that as players we should have to manually create saved files instead of having a proper in game save function? This is not a permanent solution it is a stop gap. It is like the people who don't want maps who say you can use bottles or sticks. Yes, you can but it is a poor solution. A save function hurts no one but is a benefit to most players. I don't understand the mentality where just because you won't use a game function, you think the entire community should be denied access to it.

I'm saying if you're paranoid about file corruption or want to play it safe to back up your saved files in case something does go wrong. It shouldn't take longer than if the game had a save function and you'd constantly make new saves. It's optional. I'm not even going to explain about why I think saved games would take a big chunk out of the experience that is Exanima. I'll leave that to someone else(or you to find out, hopefully).

EDIT: Just create a shortcut to the folder where the saved games are located, place it on the desktop or something, and add them to an archive called backup or something using compression software like WinRAR or just place copies into another location.

[Rick]

Ok, thanks for the clarification on the proper files to change and not change when this happens. Not all of us are coders or software developers.... ;-)

As the developer, do you see any chance of a save function being added or are we just going to have to deal with these issues manually as they come up?

Originally posted by Bare Mettle:

It's likely that whoever reccommended renaming the .rsg and .rcp files also renamed the .set file which is why it worked. Removing the saved games is an unnecessary step, all it does is remove your saved games.

[Rick]

You keep suggesting this is paranoia when in fact it is a real, reported, demonstrated, and developer recognised problem. You are clearly in denial about it but that doesn't change the fact that it is happening.

While the time it takes is longer than hitting a save fuction, it's not that much longer but that is not the point. The point is first of all a manual save breaks emersion in the game and second many people have no idea how to do a manual save. It should be the goal of every game designer to make their games more user friendly not less. Having coding or programing knowledge should never be a requirement to achieve basic fuctionality in a game. saving is basic fuctionality.

I would like to hear an explaination from you or anyone else as to how ANY optional fuction (including but not limited to saving games) can take anything at all from single player gameplay. Multip[layer, its very clear but for single player games, I have heard people make this arguement for 20 years and I have never heard anyone be able to demonstrate how and why that could ever be the case. The reality is that it is not the case and it has nothing to do with taking anything away from their gaming experience but rather, it stems for a desire to limit how OTHERS play the game. Optional fuctions in SP games are optional and effect no one but yourself.

Originally posted by ᅚ:

Originally posted by Rick:

As to the other suggestion that we should back up checkpoint files.... Are you really trying to make the point that as players we should have to manually create saved files instead of having a proper in game save function? This is not a permanent solution it is a stop gap. It is like the people who don't want maps who say you can use bottles or sticks. Yes, you can but it is a poor solution. A save function hurts no one but is a benefit to most players. I don't understand the mentality where just because you won't use a game function, you think the entire community should be denied access to it.

I'm saying if you're paranoid about file corruption or want to play it safe to back up your saved files in case something does go wrong. It shouldn't take longer than if the game had a save function and you'd constantly make new saves. It's optional. I'm not even going to explain about why I think saved games would take a big chunk out of the experience that is Exanima. I'll leave that to someone else(or you to find out, hopefully).

[Bare Mettle]

Are we going to add a function to rewind time at will making everything you do 100% inconsequential and allowing any challenge to be overcome through dumb luck? Never. We're strongly of the opinion that _no_ game should have this "feature" as it's absurd and makes almost every aspect of games completely pointless. No challenge? No consequences? No tension? No mystery? No thanks. What is the point of playing at all?

Anyway, we're not currently aware of any issues with the save system, people deleting their saves doesn't quite qualify.

[White ⁧⁧Wolf]

Originally posted by Rick:

You keep suggesting this is paranoia when in fact it is a real, reported, demonstrated, and developer recognised problem. You are clearly in denial about it but that doesn't change the fact that it is happening.

No, I mean if you're paranoid about it happening to you. Replace paranoid with worried then if you're gonna make a case about it. As for backing up the saved files, just do it after every play session. Takes like 5 seconds.

Originally posted by Bare Mettle:

Are we going to add a function to rewind time at will making everything you do 100% inconsequential and allowing any challenge to be overcome through dumb luck? Never. We're strongly of the opinion that _no_ game should have this "feature" as it's absurd and makes almost every aspect of games completely pointless. No challenge? No consequences? No tension? No mystery? No thanks. What is the point of playing at all?

Anyway, we're not currently aware of any issues with the save system, people deleting their saves doesn't quite qualify.

Totally agree. Glad you guys are doing this and thinking about the bigger picture. What's truly great is having a game that's so rewarding as this, instead of some generic pile of garbage you'll forget about the next day.

[Rick]

Isn't that essentially what you have done already with the checkpoint system? Rewind time. BUT, you have also made it optional, which allows your clients to make their own decisions about how they want to experience your game. The question for you as developers and sellers of a product is do you want your customers to have an experience THEY find satisfying or an experience you find satisfying. Every person finds differnt things rewarding or bothersome in games. Clearly you find saves bothersome because it recduces the consequences (depending on how much or little saving is allowed, thisis a sliding scale of consequence), however others find it tedious to replay several hours of gameplay to get to a specific challange that you failed to conquer the first time. I can understand and respect both points of view. I would suggest that a middle ground solution where people can choose how they want to expereince the game will result in happier players all around and dramatically increased sales.

Originally posted by Bare Mettle:

Are we going to add a function to rewind time at will making everything you do 100% inconsequential and allowing any challenge to be overcome through dumb luck? Never. We're strongly of the opinion that _no_ game should have this "feature" as it's absurd and makes almost every aspect of games completely pointless. No challenge? No consequences? No tension? No mystery? No thanks. What is the point of playing at all?

Anyway, we're not currently aware of any issues with the save system, people deleting their saves doesn't quite qualify.

[Tony]

How a game is designed and intended to be played is up to the devs and no one else. If they consider manual saving and loading to be a form of cheating, and not how they want their game to be played, then that's how it is going to be. They are not required to add options, features or mechanics which they are totally against.

Will people mod the game to change it to suit their personal wants and desires? Sure, and that's totally fine. Telling a game designer how to make their game is like telling a painter how to paint a picture... Sure, ideas and suggestions are welcome and likely to be considered if they don't conflict with the artist's vision. But directly opposing what they're trying to create?

[zaratan4o]

Checkpoints are the middle ground. All you said is based on assuming the 'client' knows what they want and what is satisfying to them. Which is more often incorrect.

Unlike most games that sadly are designed with manual save/load in mind making for stupid situations and stupid/insta deaths Exanima is not. Naturally if you choose to fight to the death every time it will end badly sooner or later otherwise you can survive quite easily as it is.

If you die think of why and learn, you have to actively learn if you want to do well not just get mad blame it on the game or whatever else and say you got nothing out of the experience. It takes very little to learn to survive if you pay attention.

[UltimatelynotQuite]

Originally posted by Rick:

I would suggest that a middle ground solution where people can choose how they want to expereince the game will result in happier players all around and dramatically increased sales.

- - - - >

Originally posted by Rick:

Isn't that essentially what you have done already with the checkpoint system? Rewind time. BUT, you have also made it optional, which allows your clients to make their own decisions about how they want to experience your game.

[Rick]

There is a reason why most painters are starving. Art has to be balanced with commecial success and the fewer options and choices a player is given, the more limited the commercial success. The game by designing a new combat system and a whole new camera sytem (for lack of a better phrase) is already asking potential buyers to make a huge leap of faith. The more unfamiliar and uncomfortable concepts that are added on top, the fewer people will take the risk on this game and the one to come. I want to see the game succeed and in Exanima the checkpoints are a good compromise.However, right now, when game errors happen, in order to non lose your saves, you need a level of codingr/programing knowledge and I think that is a bit much to ask. Maybe they can work as currently designed if the game crash/non-restart issues are fixed but I think this need to be comsidered so people don't lose their progress through no fault of their own. I would hope the follow on game would also implement some kind of checkpoint system because playing for days just to start over from the beginning is commercial death. The Devs are clearly creative visonaries and very talented, I hope they also have the practical commercial sensibilities that will see both of these projects through to success.

Originally posted by MrTMB:

How a game is designed and intended to be played is up to the devs and no one else. If they consider manual saving and loading to be a form of cheating, and not how they want their game to be played, then that's how it is going to be. They are not required to add options, features or mechanics which they are totally against.

Will people mod the game to change it to suit their personal wants and desires? Sure, and that's totally fine. Telling a game designer how to make their game is like telling a painter how to paint a picture... Sure, ideas and suggestions are welcome and likely to be considered if they don't conflict with the artist's vision. But directly opposing what they're trying to create?