NPC attack speed and riposte/counter skills.

[PsychoThruster]

Frankly their attack speed at higher tiers especially with one handed weapons seems to far surpass anything I am capable of producing. While I am certainly no master of the combat system at 43 hours I have a solid understanding and prior to this recent arena change, conquered expert arena every time I set out to do so, and even now I can accept a challenger match as an inept with a blacksmithing hammer and take out expert/master opponents sometimes. So I think it is fair to say I know what I am doing, but even so I can never replicate the rediculous attack speed of my oponents, they are capable of throwing out right, left, right overhead attacks in the span it takes me to swing once. I do not understand this and it is very frustrating not having the same speed to work with. How do I attack with the same speed? Is it even possible for a human player?

Secondly in regard to counter attacks in relation to the riposte skills I'm not sure if I am correctly activating it. Do I just quickly click after a parry? Perhaps a quick mouse swipe? Regular mouse swipe? It does not seem to do anything noticable and yet the npcs are able to land lightening quick combos off of these parries.

Am I doing something wrong, or is this just the state of the game right now? I really don't like how combat feels with this imbalance and would like to think it's just my ignorance and not how the game itself is intended to function.

[White ⁧⁧Wolf]

Maybe try spinning your body with the swing or crouching. So instead of your arm, put your whole body into it.

[PsychoThruster]

Originally posted by ᅚ:

Maybe try spinning your body with the swing or crouching. So instead of your arm, put your whole body into it.

I'm afraid you don't understand. They are able to attack three to four times, with fluidity in the span it takes me to wind up. It's not about momentum and the speed of a single blow. I have a fairly good understanding of footwork and how it plays into the physics. That's not the issue.

[White ⁧⁧Wolf]

Originally posted by PsychoThruster:

I'm afraid you don't understand. They are able to attack three to four times, with fluidity in the span it takes me to wind up. It's not about momentum and the speed of a single blow. I have a fairly good understanding of footwork and how it plays into the physics. That's not the issue.

Alright well then I don't understand. I haven't played much lately so maybe they added some new 'tricks' to the enemies that I'm not aware of yet but all I know is that it's much more complex than it seems. You really need perfect timing of your swings and movement to execute such attacks. I'm sure you know that different weapons also have different weight, and that encumbrance can slow you down.

Something else I just thought about that that I'd forgotten about is that it's possible to cancel attacks, so that is probably what's happening. Maybe they are cancelling 1 time, then swinging, then cancelling their 2nd attack and then swinging again.

[bumi]

hmm...do you mean the bugged attacks that just hit instantly after the weapons get kinda stuck? cause im just as fast as my enemies (with the right foot work and body movement)

devs also said that the player is just the same as the enemies +/- skills...except big guy in story everyone in the game is the same so it would be weird if they are faster...i think you are just missing something or refering to the bug attacks

[FalseChords]

Originally posted by so:

hmm...do you mean the bugged attacks that just hit instantly after the weapons get kinda stuck?

I have seen a few seemingly impossible ripostes that were instantaneous. 142 hours in the game and I've never been able to do one.

Has it been confirmed that these are bugged?

[PsychoThruster]

Originally posted by so:

hmm...do you mean the bugged attacks that just hit instantly after the weapons get kinda stuck? cause im just as fast as my enemies (with the right foot work and body movement)

devs also said that the player is just the same as the enemies +/- skills...except big guy in story everyone in the game is the same so it would be weird if they are faster...i think you are just missing something or refering to the bug attacks

I don't mean the bugged attacks, I mean getting smacked with a flurry of blows off of a counter all faster than the time it takes me to launch a standard attack. The fact that the developers say that npcs are the same is why I am posting here, because I want to know if I am missing something and I too can land such rediculous combos and butcher an opponent so effeciently, or if in fact this is some sort of bug or perhaps undocumented change.

[Sangrin]

I've been noticing this since the Arena came out. Master level opponents are able to swing nearly twice as fast as me (not a hyperbole) using similar weaponry. They can prep and initiate faster than my character can even contort his sword to deflect the blow.

I think it has something to do with the Riposte style skills. Only once have I ever had a lightning fast attack after a riposte, and I've yet to be able to reliably reproduce it. So I usually just stick to swinging the same time they do, and just beating the AI through footwork alone. I think there needs to be more descriptions on how these skills work, because they feel very cryptic.

I think that Master level opponents are the absolute pinnacle of fluidity that you CAN achieve, but they manage to do it at an extremely consistent level... which I don't really mind. Master level opponents should be able to compete with the best players. I think the bigger issue is the games current lack of a proper tutorial and skill description system that leaves us in the dark; making us think the AI is doing some weird ♥♥♥♥ we can't seem to reproduce. Pherhaps even after 150 hours I'm still missing something intrinsic to the games combat that I've been missing all along.

I would really like to hear an official opinion on this though, something other than the typical "You're playing the game wrong, stop using spacebar" novice advice we usually get.

TL;DR: I've noticed it too, but I don't think they have any objective advantages. The high-level AI is probably just really consistent with using the ellusive "Riposte" skill and have insane footwork.

[PsychoThruster]

Originally posted by Sangrin:

I've been noticing this since the Arena came out. Master level opponents are able to swing nearly twice as fast as me (not a hyperbole) using similar weaponry. They can prep and initiate faster than my character can even contort his sword to deflect the blow.

I think it has something to do with the Riposte style skills. Only once have I ever had a lightning fast attack after a riposte, and I've yet to be able to reliably reproduce it. So I usually just stick to swinging the same time they do, and just beating the AI through footwork alone. I think there needs to be more descriptions on how these skills work, because they feel very cryptic.

I think that Master level opponents are the absolute pinnacle of fluidity that you CAN achieve, but they manage to do it at an extremely consistent level... which I don't really mind. Master level opponents should be able to compete with the best players. I think the bigger issue is the games current lack of a proper tutorial and skill description system that leaves us in the dark; making us think the AI is doing some weird ♥♥♥♥ we can't seem to reproduce. Pherhaps even after 150 hours I'm still missing something intrinsic to the games combat that I've been missing all along.

I would really like to hear an official opinion on this though, something other than the typical "You're playing the game wrong, stop using spacebar" novice advice we usually get.

TL;DR: I've noticed it too, but I don't think they have any objective advantages. The high-level AI is probably just really consistent with using the ellusive "Riposte" skill and have insane footwork.

Thanks for replying, we're on the same page. I just want to know if I am missing something. I've tried for hours to reproduce the ai's fluidity and I have had no success.

[Brandrixco]

The AI uses everything you can do. The reason why they are swinging faster in some areas is because they fake an attack with a feint, which is holding LMB for an attack quickly renewing it then as soon as you swing they parry it and follow with a riposte, which is a much faster swing. They don't cheat...

[UltimatelynotQuite]

There's been quite a bit of discussion on this recently on the Steam forums, on the official forums and among insiders. A solid consensus has not yet been reached.

As far as I can tell, Sangrin seems to have the right idea. Since quite a few versions ago the AI has developed an uncanny ability to hit overheads and possibly other strikes without needing any noticeable wind-up. There's very clear video evidence of this and, to my knowledge, not even the best players among the insiders have any idea how to perform these hits as a player. It only seems to occur after an attack has been initiated by the player, so it may well be linked to the riposte skill. It seems to happen a lot more with axes, but it has been seen to occur with maces and swords. Perhaps it has to do with pixel perfect timing by the AI, but to the player it usually seems to come out of absolutely nowhere.

The dev has responded to a report on this on the insider forums, but since the context there was slightly different I'm uncomfortable with quoting them. Hopefully they can chime in on this, as imo it's a pretty serious matter that can lead to frustrating and seemingly unfair defeats and deaths.

[Brandrixco]

The AI can do that because they are doing a feint attack, which you then attack and the AI follows up with a quick riposte attack. I have done them numerous times. When you are swinging you can stop the attack wait for your opponent to swing and once they miss you can do a very fast counter swing.

[Bare Mettle]

There have been some reports and footage shown of attacks with no apparent windup. The AI essentially uses the same controls as the player, and goes through the same exact code, they don't have any control over how they attack beyond "begin attack", just like the player. If the AI is somehow able to attack faster then it must be due to some bug somewhere in how the attack animation is executed, seems strange that it should only affect AI though.

We have taken the reports seriously and we've been monitoring all the relevant parameters watching for something unusual. I've done quite a few hours of testing myself by now, and nothing strange came up, nor did I notice any attacks behaving oddly.

In general it is quite possible to hide the windup of a swing using feint. Even with very heavy weapons a well timed feinted attack can seem to come out of nowhere. A very simple way to reproduce this is remise and feint as the second attack is just gaining momentum. There's no special mechanic involved, it's just the way the momentum is translated into the new swing can be very hard to see. This also makes it quite hard for the AI to parry.

The AI does some pretty wild stuff with feint, but I'm not sure it could justify something like the strike I saw captured on video. On the other hand it's also very hard to say what is and isn't possible playing by the rules, as the physics and muscle driven animation don't exactly behave in a predictable way.

We'll keep investigating either way and see if something comes up.

As for the skills, there's no special mechanics or timings you need to know to use them properly. They essentially just remove delays and make transitions quicker. How quickly you riposte is just down to how quickly you attack after parry, you don't need to activate it somehow, you just don't have to wait for your character to recover from the parry.

[Gozer]

I had my arena main in a challenge against a scrub inept with a cleaver.

Sure enough that fool pulls a three strike slash technique across my man's chest and fills his bar completely red.

Damn, if this AI didn't cheat he sure didn't have to train 172 hrs to learn how to do that.

Seems the AI already knows what's possible and we dont.

[Brandrixco]

Originally posted by Arzak:

I had my arena main in a challenge against a scrub inept with a cleaver.

Sure enough that fool pulls a three strike slash technique across my man's chest and fills his bar completely red.

Damn, if this AI didn't cheat he sure didn't have to train 172 hrs to learn how to do that.

Seems the AI already knows what's possible and we dont.

You were not parrying properly that is why you got slashed. The cleaver is actually extremely deadly, its sharp and fast and has a pretty large "sweet" spot.

[[Æsir]Yuulaw]

Its a momentum abuse i think, people call it speed glitch but i think its about circular movement, swings have barely any effect on this besides when you switch from attack/defend. You can build momentum and come to a full stop, the momentum will stay a second and can be used dreadfully.. like throwing your shoulder before a punch to add weight.

Secondly there are some rediculous reposts from a miss (the block movement without an actual block yet reposts none the less). This isnt a damn reposte why give the benefit!? >.<