Bladed weapons too powerful vs. plate armor

[Sgt Vennamo]

I've spend quite a few hours in arena, and I feel like bladed weapons are way too strong against plate armour. I've started fighting against master level enemies with just a 1-handed sword and they still take only around 10 good hits to kill, when they should be almost immune to swords (except when thrusting to gaps in armor).

Or just add more layers to the opponents armor. Most of the time they seem to be missing padded and chain layers completely, only rocking the plate layer. Expert level opponents also seem to always be missing chain leggings, which means they die to 2 or 3 stabs in the thighs.

Anyways, keep up the good work.

EDIT: Falchion seems to kill plate armoured opponent in around 5-hits

[Pierdzimir]

Check "schola gladiatoria" ", "Lindybaige" or "KnightErant" channels on YT. They have many good videos about armor how was it used, how good does it protect etc. Basicly a simple gambeson with mail on top of it if basicly immune to cuts. if you have plate armor on top if it it's overkill in terms of cuts, but noone was cutting armor, especially plate. We must also consider aiming thrusts in this game. It is almost impossible at this point to accuratly aim with point of your weapon to hit in between armor plates. So i think blade damage here is just balance. I think if they made it more realistical swords would be useless against opponents armed even with simple gambesson and chainmail.

[Sgt Vennamo]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Tony:

The reason swords work the way they do is for gameplay balance reasons, not because it's trying to imitate 100% realistically what a sword would do against armor. The swords do significantly less damage against heavy armor but they still must be able to slowly whittle someone down for gameplay reasons. If someone in armor was totally immune to sword strikes then no one would ever use a sword.

I would say dropping an plate-armored opponent in five hits with 1-handed sword 'slowly whittling'. Spear works that way, since it takes closer to 20 decent thrusts to win.

[Sgt Vennamo]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Pellas Mir'san:

Check "schola gladiatoria" ", "Lindybaige" or "KnightErant" channels on YT. They have many good videos about armor how was it used, how good does it protect etc. Basicly a simple gambeson with main on top of it if basicly immune to cuts. if you have plate armor on top if it it's overkill in terms of cuts, but noone was cutting armor, especially plate. We must also consider aiming thrusts in this game. It is almost impossible at this point to accuratly aim with point of your weapon to hit in between armor plates. So i think blade damage here is just balance. I think if they made it more realistical swords would be useless against opponents armed even with simple gambesson and chainmail.

I have to check Lindybaige's channel. Hadn't heard about that one before.
I agree that swords need to do some damage against armored opponents for balance reasons, but right now swords are way too powerful. I just tested earlier today that you can kill Master AI in plate armor with 5-6 slashes and stabs with a Falchion.

[Tony]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Sgt Vennamo:

I would say dropping an plate-armored opponent in five hits with 1-handed sword 'slowly whittling'. Spear works that way, since it takes closer to 20 decent thrusts to win.

Well, this is a good point. All weapons and their damage types are obviously still a work in progress and constantly being tweaked. The devs don't want to spend too much time in this area just yet because the entire system is going to be overhauled with procedural weapons. Basically, don't fret too much just yet if weapons aren't behaving as you think they should since everything is going to change.

[Bare Mettle]

I kind of agree that swords are too effective against plate and I've said it a few times. Swords cannot cut metal armour, but all weapons do impact damage and the difference between them isn't all that pronounced. A top heavy weapon will do maybe twice as much impact damage as a sword.

One could say that all weapons are too effective against plate armour. Thing is armour primarily protects effectively against wound damage rather than "stamina" damage. The idea here was to make heavy armour extremely useful and desirable, but not confer invincibility.

We're always tweaking the damage system, and we have some changes in mind. In the most recent update crush damage received a significant buff against armour, piercing damage was improved a few patches prior. Slashing damage is due a major overhaul in how it functions.

The observation that most master opponents do not wear gambesons and such is important. This is just something we haven't got round to implementing properly in the equipment generation system. A lot of the impact mitigation should indeed come from wearing layered and padded cloth too. Chain under full plate on the other hand is pretty much useless.

[Pierdzimir]

I really like whole Stamina system. If you are wearing full plate you are going to pass out after few powerfull blows. Gambesons and padded coats were wore underneath of plate to protect body from blunt trauma, while chainmail was to protect armor gaps from trusts and cuts. Also in medieval period you didn't want to kill your opponent. (Especially one who could afford full set of plate armor). People were going for war not because it was fun and patriotic thing to do, but because it was usually fast way to get rich from spoils and ransoms. Whole set of plate armor could cost as much as a single village, and guy wearing it even more so. Also big battle were wery rare. Most wars were fought via siages. So people weren't so terrified of getting slaughtered 2 days afrter signing in.

[Bare Mettle]

To clarify, when I say "double the impact damage" I'm speaking in relative terms. Damage is of course primarily determined by physical interactions, the actual stats on weapons are ratings that either play a partial role or are estimates.

[Sgt Vennamo]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Bare Mettle:

I kind of agree that swords are too effective against plate and I've said it a few times. Swords cannot cut metal armour, but all weapons do impact damage and the difference between them isn't all that pronounced. A top heavy weapon will do maybe twice as much impact damage as a sword.

One could say that all weapons are too effective against plate armour. Thing is armour primarily protects effectively against wound damage rather than "stamina" damage. The idea here was to make heavy armour extremely useful and desirable, but not confer invincibility.

We're always tweaking the damage system, and we have some changes in mind. In the most recent update crush damage received a significant buff against armour, piercing damage was improved a few patches prior. Slashing damage is due a major overhaul in how it functions.

The observation that most master opponents do not wear gambesons and such is important. This is just something we haven't got round to implementing properly in the equipment generation system. A lot of the impact mitigation should indeed come from wearing layered and padded cloth too. Chain under full plate on the other hand is pretty much useless.

I sometimes forget this game is still in Beta. :p I have probably over 200h clocked in this game (I mostly play without steam) and I haven't even touched the story mode yet. But it's good to be reminded that all these issues are being worked on.

I did a little test for another thread, and it implies that having those extra layers underneath plate armor increases 'toughness' by about 40% against polearms. I'd imagine the effect is even more pronounced using lighter weaponry.

[||VM:RP|| Dorag]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Sgt Vennamo:

Diposting pertama kali oleh ||VM:RP|| Dorag:

Like nacho said, your sword is at worst, used as an impact weapon, just like an officer being shot with a rifle while wearing a vest, it might have stopped the bullet but he just recieved a concentrated punch into his torso, and it WILL hurt and leave you in pain on the ground, so, that's stamina damage, and the swords aren't bullets, I think the damage COULD use a little nerfing as far as the devs see fit, but I'm not really bothered by it. I'm just scared that I will soft-spot with the sword and then I'm as good as dead :D

But a sword really doesn't have enough mass to cause severe pain when hitting a plate, since average longsword weights under 2kg. I've been hit by a friend full force on full chestplate (wearing a padded gambeson underneath) and it didn't even hurt. Hitting a helmet probably would be quite effective tho.

Yes you make a valid point, the person getting hit is most probably not experiencing severe pain, hence why it takes more than a few hits to bring down a person in a full plate, and you have to remember that if fully armored, in a fight if you get hit enough times you will run out of breath, you'll begin to feel weak, every hit is small but after many hits you've been suppressed enough that you'll pass out, and that's why it is, as the developers said above this post, not wound damage but rather Stamina damage, you wear out the Knight :D

As for how many hits it takes to bring down the Knight, that's something BM will have to think about, but for now, personally, I am not that bothered by it, I feel that using a sword against plate is unrealistic because even though it is not implemented yet, the edge would wear out and become blunt and useless quickly, that's just a little Roleplay thing I account for :D I use impact or crush weapons instead.

P.S I'm super excited to hear slashing damage is getting an overhaul, the pesky one handed sword and shield or super quick two hander users cut you with even the slightest of touch to the blade, and the swords are 90% blade :P

[Greb]

I feel the Bardiche needs looking at, it's way too powerful as a thrusting weapon as is, it almost feels like you get multiple hits in with a single thrust, the amount of arterial spray you get. I get how it's a giant spike of death and all, but it's also curved, it probably shouldn't be able to penetrate someones body that badly, especially through plate and chainmail lol. Not that I'm complaining.

I've had some one shot victories in the arena because of it, cheesing the poor AI that kind of stands dumbstruck for a half second before engaging, if you're quick you can land a running thrust and at that point it's all over.

If that's "Working As Designed" then that's fair play of course. Maybe it's just my playstyle but it just seems in dire need of tweaking. Thrusting at a shield users legs kills them with no effort, thrusting is fast enough and controllable enough that you can slip in and out between/before big heavy weapon swings and have your way with Master ranked plated guys too...on occasion (those guys punish you hard for missing so it's justified somewhat, high risk, high reward)

The same can be said about fists. I've killed an Expert in plate and mail (not intentionally, I ranked up without realising and ended up fighting a --- Challenger ♥♥♥♥♥ and unarmed) using only fists because it functions as a kind of psuedo blunt thrust that seems to totally crush the hell out of armour and annihilate the soft flesh inside...

...is there some kind of bonus damage (I.E awarded bonus damage, not just how weapon physics and locations struck plays out...I mean like Mount and Blade style where it gives like +60% damage for attacking from a galloping horse type thing, multiplying base damage) at play for landing square hits with the "correct" part of your weapon, while dashing forward with high momentum? It feels like a lot is being applied if so.

Also shield users can't handle pugilism. Something doesn't click with at least 1 in 3 punches. It's gloriously satisfying to see that annoying Expert Practice shieldmaiden in red and black get laid out with minimal effort though. Always hated her.

[Bare Mettle]

Yeah, many people have pointed out that the bardiche and fists are OP.

There is no bonus damage as such, what part of the weapon you hit with and with how much force is a fundamental part of the damage system. It is determined purely by what the physics simulation measures, without any special conditions. It is by no means "linear" though, especially for crushing and to some extent piercing, powerful hits are far more devastating than weak or poorly landed ones. A badly placed, grazing or weak blow often does almost nothing, a very good hit can kill outright.

[||VM:RP|| Dorag]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Bare Mettle:

Yeah, many people have pointed out that the bardiche and fists are OP.

There is no bonus damage as such, what part of the weapon you hit with and with how much force is a fundamental part of the damage system. It is determined purely by what the physics simulation measures, without any special conditions. It is by no means "linear" though, especially for crushing and to some extent piercing, powerful hits are far more devastating than weak or poorly landed ones. A badly placed, grazing or weak blow often does almost nothing, a very good hit can kill outright.

I have noticed since the new update that overheads with just about anything blunt, now kill.
And it is an absolutely fantastic show of brains and blood when I smack an opponent on the head with a maul/mace/morningstar/bardiche, that would be insta death.

I believe it is due to the balancing you've done, the swing motion of the hand from the overhead seems to accelerate more resulting in more speed, but also it might be because of the change for crush and impact, absolutely amazing thank you :D

[Pierdzimir]

Berdiche isn't OP. It's a very good weapon, that's why it was used over the ages everywhere. Italy, Switzerland, Russia. You don't see pole hammers or morning stars in every single museum like you can see berdich. It's because the weapon itself was very good at it's job. It had a momentum, wasn't too short, wasn't too long, had a spike, had a blade. You can't call a spoon OP because it's better than fork at eating soup.

[Murf]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Pellas Mir'san:

Berdiche isn't OP. It's a very good weapon, that's why it was used over the ages everywhere. Italy, Switzerland, Russia. You don't see pole hammers or morning stars in every single museum like you can see berdich. It's because the weapon itself was very good at it's job. It had a momentum, wasn't too short, wasn't too long, had a spike, had a blade. You can't call a spoon OP because it's better than fork at eating soup.

In regards to how it dmgs NPC's it is a tad OP, when I can thrust kill sir with 5 thrusts, that's a bit OP IMO. Sir should be much harder to kill if using a conventional weapon.

[Caramel_Clown]

I just prefer mauls and sledgehammers. Terribly unrealistic to see one as a combat weapon, but incredibly fun. Good blow to the head will send any opponent to the ground where you can finish them off with 1 or 2 more hits.