Medium Generator Viability

[Bomoo]

Currently the medium generator is scrap. It really doesn't have a niche simply because its fuel requires processing into carbon before it's able to actually do its job. And in a situation like that in which the player character finds themselves within the game world, essentially frontier life/survival, every tool has to be versatile or into the trash it goes. And versatile the medium generator is not.

HOWEVER if you change the medium generator to use both organic and carbon, suddenly this piece of junk becomes less useless than it is at the moment. But how do we make it an attractive option vs. the much more compact and widely used smol generator? Well, we can do what medium versions of other power generating thingers - be more efficient.

In terms of raw numbers, the S generator produces 1 power for the duration of its burn of an organic nugget. For an M generator, why not 2? Considering how compact S is I don't think 2 for a much larger item would be unreasonable. Thematically we can say it achieves this by burning the fuel more efficiently. As for its usual carbon fuel, 3 is just about fine for that. Possibly we might even think about bumping that up to as much as 4.

~

This isn't strictly related to the generators, but it does concern power. I noticed large rovers only draw 1 power while zipping around. Why so low? We can comfortably bump that up to at least 2.

[Wolfgang]

The medium generator is for the time when you don't have a RTG yet and you go somewhere where you have no other source of power (like underground).

Also, quoting the Astroneer wiki:
"A Medium Generator will produce 300 Units of power from one Carbon. Making the Carbon takes one Organic and 60 Units of power in a Smelting Furnace. The net result is 240 (300-60) Units of power from one Organic."
(https://astroneer.gamepedia.com/Medium_Generator)

[Bomoo]

Originally posted by Wolfgang:

The medium generator is for the time when you don't have a RTG yet and you go somewhere where you have no other source of power (like underground).

Yes, that's the idea behind it. However, in practice, you never need to use one since you can get wind power underground, which I'm pretty sure has to be a bug. That is the point of this thread. On paper it sounds fine but in actual gameplay practice it's scrap.

What are you going to do, carry a medium storage of carbon down with you? What if you don't use it all, just leave it there? You need a base to process the organic nuggets into carbon, which you don't have underground. Contrast with the S generator which is fueled by a junk resource you literally can find on the ground when you need it, and pretty much anywhere. That is the key distinction that makes the one viable and the other junk - fuel availability and logistics, and that is what makes the M generator a non-viable piece of "frontier" technology - its lack of versatility.

[Wolfgang]

Originally posted by Bomoo:

Originally posted by Wolfgang:

The medium generator is for the time when you don't have a RTG yet and you go somewhere where you have no other source of power (like underground).

Yes, that's the idea behind it. However, in practice, you never need to use one. That is the point of this thread. On paper it sounds fine but in actual gameplay practice it's scrap.

Maybe to your gameplay practice. I had a good use for the medium generator before I had RTGs. I used them to power my Atmospheric condenser on Atrox as your yield of both solar and wind energy is not really great there (ignoring that the whole thing shuts off once it is night and there is no wind).

You have to keep in mind that this game doesn't have linear gameplay but that you are free to do whatever you want right from the start. So you can not predict whether someone will ever use an item or not.

[Bomoo]

It strikes me that one possible solution to the M generator's uselesness could be a hypothetical small furnace, but that's kinda goofy. I think it'd be much more thematic if it just took organic nuggets as fuel like its S cousin does.

[Bomoo]

Originally posted by Wolfgang:

Maybe to your gameplay practice. I had a good use for the medium generator before I had RTGs. I used them to power my Atmospheric condenser on Atrox as your yield of both solar and wind energy is not really great there (ignoring that the whole thing shuts off once it is night and there is no wind).

You have to keep in mind that this game doesn't have linear gameplay but that you are free to do whatever you want right from the start. So you can not predict whether someone will ever use an item or not.

Okay, I will grant you that may be the ONE situation in which an M generator is actually useful, for getting that first bottle of helium from Atrox so you can start cranking out nanofiber and RTGs. Even so, in that situation I simply stuck four wind turbines onto my large rocket and went afk to cook dinner, but an M generator would have been better in that scenario, yes.

[Wolfgang]

Originally posted by Bomoo:

Originally posted by Wolfgang:

The medium generator is for the time when you don't have a RTG yet and you go somewhere where you have no other source of power (like underground).

What are you going to do, carry a medium storage of carbon down with you? What if you don't use it all, just leave it there? You need a base to process the organic nuggets into carbon, which you don't have underground. Contrast with the S generator which is fueled by a junk resource you literally can find on the ground when you need it, and pretty much anywhere. That is the key distinction that makes the one viable and the other junk - fuel availability and logistics, and that is what makes the M generator a non-viable piece of "frontier" technology - its lack of versatility.

You process the organic resource before you go down. Simple as that. And you take the carbon back with you as you would with any other resource. With carbon you can do longer trips underground with items that use more power than the small generator can produce.
Just to compare: A small generator produces only 1 U/s of power while the medium generator produces 3 U/s of power. Both run for 100 seconds with one piece of the needed resource.

The wiki page I linked gives you a good comparison of the two generators.

[Bomoo]

Originally posted by Wolfgang:

You process the organic resource before you go down. Simple as that. And you take the carbon back with you as you would with any other resource. With carbon you can do longer trips underground with items that use more power than the small generator can produce.
Just to compare: A small generator produces only 1 U/s of power while the medium generator produces 3 U/s of power. Both run for 100 seconds with one piece of the needed resource.

The wiki page I linked gives you a good comparison of the two generators.

I think you're missing the point. One generator is fueled by a resource you can find on the ground where you're going. I.e. Not only is the S generator effectively 1/8th the size, you don't take up your limited cargo space with fuel, you dig it up as you need it. The other, you have to lug processed fuel around with you, and thereby have less space to carry things back with you.

Yes, with the M generator you're able to take "longer trips underground," but you aren't connecting the two. Longer trips underground with half the carry capacity (assuming a tractor with 3 trailers) = very short trips underground, for which you don't need an M generator. Besides, the power draw of a tractor is so insignificantly low that a single small wind turbine stuck on it powers it just fine. Even an S generator would be a bit overkill. Maybe if they ever fix the underground wind bug (and bump up vehicle power drain such that it's actually non-trivial and you need to put some thought into it) and you actually do need to think more deeply about your underground power solution.

There isn't even anything to do underground that requires the power a generator puts out. Maybe opening research pods, but research is so abundant you can get more than plenty to unlock the entire tech tree just driving around on the surface.

[najlitarvan]

i use the generator 1 per a save when going to radiated (still have trouble with 1.0 names) and getting helium it is true that the generator should get a buff

[Wolfgang]

Originally posted by Bomoo:

Originally posted by Wolfgang:

You process the organic resource before you go down. Simple as that. And you take the carbon back with you as you would with any other resource. With carbon you can do longer trips underground with items that use more power than the small generator can produce.
Just to compare: A small generator produces only 1 U/s of power while the medium generator produces 3 U/s of power. Both run for 100 seconds with one piece of the needed resource.

The wiki page I linked gives you a good comparison of the two generators.

I think you're missing the point. One generator is fueled by a resource you can find on the ground where you're going. I.e. Not only is the S generator effectively 1/8th the size, you don't take up your limited cargo space with fuel, you dig it up as you need it. The other, you have to lug processed fuel around with you, and thereby have less space to carry things back with you.

Yes, with the M generator you're able to take "longer trips underground," but you aren't connecting the two. Longer trips underground with half the carry capacity (assuming a tractor with 3 trailers) = very short trips underground, for which you don't need an M generator. Besides, the power draw of a tractor is so insignificantly low that a single small wind turbine stuck on it powers it just fine. Even an S generator would be a bit overkill. Maybe if they ever fix the underground wind bug (and bump up vehicle power drain such that it's actually non-trivial and you need to put some thought into it) and you actually do need to think more deeply about your underground power solution.

There isn't even anything to do underground that requires the power a generator puts out. Maybe opening research pods, but research is so abundant you can get more than plenty to unlock the entire tech tree just driving around on the surface.

If you only use something small, yes. But as soon as you need larger equipment and have more things that draw more power (e.g. a drill and paver) you will not only need more power but you will also have more space to store stuff.
Again, quoting the wiki:
"When planning for long trips, Carbon has the highest consumable power yield per single T1 slot of any item in the entire game, with a few exceptions;

The tier 2 slot that a Medium Generator takes up is effectively 24 tier 1 slots that could be used by Medium Storage Silo to hold Organic and Small Generators.
Consequently, it's possible to carry more energy per storage space used by placing Organic instead of Carbon if space is limited.
The ratio flips above 12 spaces used; 12 T1 spaces worth of Organic or Carbon produce almost exactly the same amount of power, including the overhead of the space the generator takes up. An easy way to remember is that if you must carry more than 12 Organic for portable power, you will be able to store more total energy by using a Medium Generator instead.
For longer one-way trips, it might be viable to simply package a Medium Generator back into its original T1 box, or fabricate a new one by bringing materials along."

[Bomoo]

Originally posted by najlitarvan:

i use the generator 1 per a save when going to radiated (still have trouble with 1.0 names) and getting helium it is true that the generator should get a buff

Yeah, that's pretty much its only use from what I've seen. Shame, because I love the model and wish I could find a niche for it elsewhere.

[Bomoo]

Originally posted by Wolfgang:

If you only use something small, yes. But as soon as you need larger equipment and have more things that draw more power (e.g. a drill and paver) you will not only need more power but you will also have more space to store stuff.
Again, quoting the wiki:
"When planning for long trips, Carbon has the highest consumable power yield per single T1 slot of any item in the entire game, with a few exceptions;

The tier 2 slot that a Medium Generator takes up is effectively 24 tier 1 slots that could be used by Medium Storage Silo to hold Organic and Small Generators.
Consequently, it's possible to carry more energy per storage space used by placing Organic instead of Carbon if space is limited.
The ratio flips above 12 spaces used; 12 T1 spaces worth of Organic or Carbon produce almost exactly the same amount of power, including the overhead of the space the generator takes up. An easy way to remember is that if you must carry more than 12 Organic for portable power, you will be able to store more total energy by using a Medium Generator instead.
For longer one-way trips, it might be viable to simply package a Medium Generator back into its original T1 box, or fabricate a new one by bringing materials along."

Once again you're missing the point and thinking in terms of abstracts and not in real gameplay situations. The point of this thread is to suggest making the M generator a viable option in a wider range of situations, especially against its apples-to-apples competition, the S generator. The fact is that S fuel can be found anywhere and dug up and used without processing and M fuel requires a trip to the furnace back at your base, and therefore having to lug it around, and therefore handicapping your ability to collect resources.

Maybe if you're driving around with a ludicrously long rover train that happens to have a smelter on it. But a vehicle like that would be a disaster underground, and you'd be infinitely better off just powering it with solar/wind up on the surface.

Even if it is mathematically less efficient to burn a lot of organic vs. a lot of carbon, in a real gameplay situation, you have to process that carbon back at your base and carry it with you. That logistical issue by itself renders the M generator generally non-viable when compared to an S generator or two. Maybe if you could create carbon out in the field, but again, that's goofy and implausible, and a much more thematic solution is simply letting the M generator take organic as well as carbon fuel.

[Wolfgang]

Originally posted by Bomoo:

Once again you're missing the point and thinking in terms of abstracts and not in real gameplay situations. The point of this thread is to suggest making the M generator a viable option in a wider range of situations, especially against its apples-to-apples competition, the S generator. The fact is that S fuel can be found anywhere and dug up and used without processing and M fuel requires a trip to the furnace back at your base, and therefore having to lug it around, and therefore handicapping your ability to collect resources.

Maybe if you're driving around with a ludicrously long rover train that happens to have a smelter on it. But a vehicle like that would be a disaster underground, and you'd be infinitely better off just powering it with solar/wind up on the surface.

Even if it is mathematically less efficient to burn a lot of organic vs. a lot of carbon, in a real gameplay situation, you have to process that carbon back at your base and carry it with you. That logistical issue by itself renders the M generator generally non-viable when compared to an S generator or two. Maybe if you could create carbon out in the field, but again, that's goofy and implausible, and a much more thematic solution is simply letting the M generator take organic as well as carbon fuel.

I think you are missing my point here which is simply: The medium generator produces more energy because you have to process the resource first.
Every way of processing the resources makes them more valuable ending in the nanocarbon alloy which you can use (along with Lithium) to make RTGs. The start of the nanocarbon alloy is basically unprocessed resources which you have to smelt and put into your chemistry lab to process them.
Same goes for carbon which is processed organic resource thus making carbon more valuable than organic resource.

But I have to quote myself here:

Originally posted by Wolfgang:

You have to keep in mind that this game doesn't have linear gameplay but that you are free to do whatever you want right from the start. So you can not predict whether someone will ever use an item or not.

Medium generators are a good solution to power a big base with a high energy demand while you craft RTGs. Small generators are more for the beginning while medium generators are for your fist trip establishing a base on a differnent planet/moon.

[Bomoo]

"Non-linear gameplay" is irrelevant to the point, as is "produces more energy." Totally missing the point and arguing about something else. I think you might be misunderstanding that I'm not proposing that the M generator use organic INSTEAD of carbon, but IN ADDITION to.

Originally posted by Bomoo:

Once again you're missing the point and thinking in terms of abstracts and not in real gameplay situations. The point of this thread is to suggest making the M generator a viable option in a wider range of situations, especially against its apples-to-apples competition, the S generator.

For the record the medium rover has the same problem. Namely that it has no niche and is therefore useless and a waste of resources to build and research - the tractor has effectively stolen the M rover's niche due to shortsighted design by people who don't play this game. At least with M generators they have the slight advantage that you can find them as freebies lying around in caves.

[JohnnyZerg]

I also want to tell my experience:

Small generator: I use it from the beginning to the end of the game. Useful for powering the backpack and using the mod tools of the soil tool, and 1 or 2 on the Large Rover because very small and organic you find it on the surface or you create it through a Soil Centrifuge that you can mount on rover, which I also use to make graphite for packagers and quartz for beacons while exploring.

Medium Generator: Useful on a base in case of energy need and sometimes while facing the construction of a new base. When I use it, I often create a Soil Centrifuge and a melting furnace just for make organic and carbon. Using a battery sensor with attached batteries makes it very useful for this.

I don't use it to collect gases or for autoextractor because with 8/24 turbines in medium storage or medium silos (which I consider as to be a hiccup RTG) are good for collecting all types of gas/resource in long time and while doing other things.

As you can see, maybe the medium generator is not necessary but sometimes it can be convenient for building the bases, while the small generator even if it produces little power is very versatile.

[WittkopDotz]

after you finally get enough solar panels and wind turbines and a LOT of small batteries to store power, you just scrap those, they are useless