Removing a rook vest?

[Fradley110]

So we know (as of before the MP5 nerf, this may end up being unecessary) that rook has a very high win delta, still considerably higher than his MP5 counterpart Doc. Has it ever been considered to remove one of his vests so he has 4 rather than 5?

Would lead teams to decide between who needs the vests and who doesn’t (which I personally think would be very interesting, especially in pro league), would cause solo queuers to rush to pick one up haha and it would surely somewhat nerf the vests seemingly powerful and passive impact on rounds. At least now if you know it saved a player in a fight, you not only benefitted from the rook pick in the first place but also by choosing to be one of the four who picked up the armour etc...

P.s. Echo shouldn’t be immune to Dokkaebi

[IX]

I mean, don't we all need to be prepared? I mean I get it's a game and all, it's interesting but sounds odd.

[Razin_Shah]

1) The MP5 nerf barely did anything. I honestly completely forgot about it. It doesn't seem to affect his time-to-kill that much.

2) I agree that he shouldn't have 5 armor plates. What is even the point of having Rook put down his armor plates if everyone can equip it. He should have 3 armor plates. Finka should also have 3 nanobot-filled syringes where she needs to apply it to select her teammates after spawning.

3) Dokkaebi has a very strong ability. It's basically Lion's ability but slightly less unbalanced. If her phone hack plays a quieter ringtone (instead of loud vibration) that shuts off after 10 seconds, then I agree that Echo shouldn't be immune to it.

[HoneyDrake]

Echo is immune to Dokka, because he doesnt use an phone and she is not able to hack something like that... to make... ringing sounds? So yeah, that is fine.

And no: the vests are fine as they are. And no, his nades are fine too, no, the damage decrease is fine too, same as the injured status as long as you did not get an headshot.

And how does it affect Pro League? Tell me... In fact: we see more Doc's than Rooks, hell: did we even see him at all?

https://www.reddit.com/r/R6ProLeague/comments/a21l93/season_8_lan_finals_operator_pick_rate_ban_rate/

Season 8 Finals, Pro League: Pick Rate 4,8% 6th place from below, abover Tachanka, Recruit, Frost, Caveira and Kapkan...

Yeah totally overpicked and overused. NOT.

[HoneyDrake]

On another hand: he is on par with Sledge: Easy to use gadget, self-explaining and doesn't affect gameplay negatively.

Just because his Win-Delta is "higher" doesn't mean he is unbalanced.

[Razin_Shah]

Originally posted by Honey Drake:

Echo is immune to Dokka, because he doesnt use an phone and she is not able to hack something like that... to make... ringing sounds? So yeah, that is fine.

And no: the vests are fine as they are. And no, his nades are fine too, no, the damage decrease is fine too, same as the injured status as long as you did not get an headshot.

And how does it affect Pro League? Tell me... In fact: we see more Doc's than Rooks, hell: did we even see him at all?

https://www.reddit.com/r/R6ProLeague/comments/a21l93/season_8_lan_finals_operator_pick_rate_ban_rate/

Season 8 Finals, Pro League: Pick Rate 4,8% 6th place from below, abover Tachanka, Recruit, Frost, Caveira and Kapkan...

Yeah totally overpicked and overused. NOT.

I kind of like the idea of reducing the armor plates because it adds a layer of complexity to the game. You have to be strategic and decide who benefits most from the armor and let them use it. Kind of like how Jager only has 3 ADS so he has to be strategic about how he deploys them.

[HoneyDrake]

What's tactical about managing resources when you are in a random squad, while him being useless in any team which is halfway cooperating? Does it make it more difficult for Bandit to have only one charge, while needing to combine him with Mute to actually be able to do what... he should be able to do alone?

Do we start balancing the game for low elo players now? Well, how about giving Thatcher 20 EMP Grenades, so defenders have to be tactical on how to use bandit charges, mute jammers and other stuff?

The state of Rook is pretty decent, his tool-kit is properly balanced and if you like to play a game where you need to decide who becomes an plate just melee the armor once 4 were taken from it, or don't take one yourself... there you go.

[primobrainlet]

I would keep rook the same, sure a juiced up doc with an extra armor plating running at you with a shotgun in one hand and a revolver in one hand is scary, but lets face it

the thick bois just arent meant for that line of work

[Fradley110]

Originally posted by Honey Drake:

Echo is immune to Dokka, because he doesnt use an phone and she is not able to hack something like that... to make... ringing sounds? So yeah, that is fine.

And no: the vests are fine as they are. And no, his nades are fine too, no, the damage decrease is fine too, same as the injured status as long as you did not get an headshot.

And how does it affect Pro League? Tell me... In fact: we see more Doc's than Rooks, hell: did we even see him at all?

https://www.reddit.com/r/R6ProLeague/comments/a21l93/season_8_lan_finals_operator_pick_rate_ban_rate/

Season 8 Finals, Pro League: Pick Rate 4,8% 6th place from below, abover Tachanka, Recruit, Frost, Caveira and Kapkan...

Yeah totally overpicked and overused. NOT.

Lore shouldn’t justify a bad mechanic in the game, Echo has a bonus over every other defence operator (besides Mute kind of) in the fact that he can’t be rung and his cams can’t be hacked. He’s already a good enough operator, he shouldn’t have that added on because the lore says he does. Also the lore behind why his Yokais can’t be hacked is no longer valid, since defenders can now access it.

Don’t mind his bases, don’t mind the gun nerf, doc and rook could do with adjustments, however the stats show rook armour is consistently very strong for what is no work other than picking the rook and every wasting a few secs in the prep phase. I like Rook, I like that picking him is statistically very good for the team but I think it both needs another element added to it (via selecting who on the team risks going without) and it does need a nerf. He (as of pre-MP5 nerf) had the highest win delta of any defender, for no risk or even effort, that needs to balanced.

My point about the pro league was more about how it’d be interesting to see who the pros choose to leave armour-less. The roamers are likely to engage in the early important fights, the anchors needs to stay alive to protect the sites and attacking routes etc, who do they choose to prioritise the vests for.

[Razin_Shah]

Originally posted by Honey Drake:

What's tactical about managing resources when you are in a random squad, while him being useless in any team which is halfway cooperating? Does it make it more difficult for Bandit to have only one charge, while needing to combine him with Mute to actually be able to do what... he should be able to do alone?

Do we start balancing the game for low elo players now? Well, how about giving Thatcher 20 EMP Grenades, so defenders have to be tactical on how to use bandit charges, mute jammers and other stuff?

The state of Rook is pretty decent, his tool-kit is properly balanced and if you like to play a game where you need to decide who becomes an plate just melee the armor once 4 were taken from it, or don't take one yourself... there you go.

Well they could buff his armor plates significantly and reduce him to only having 3 of them. That would sound like an interesting rework. However, lets be honest here. People play Rook/Doc for the Acog MP5. No changes to their gadget will do anything to their win delta.

[HoneyDrake]

Originally posted by Fradley110:

Originally posted by Honey Drake:

Echo is immune to Dokka, because he doesnt use an phone and she is not able to hack something like that... to make... ringing sounds? So yeah, that is fine.

And no: the vests are fine as they are. And no, his nades are fine too, no, the damage decrease is fine too, same as the injured status as long as you did not get an headshot.

And how does it affect Pro League? Tell me... In fact: we see more Doc's than Rooks, hell: did we even see him at all?

https://www.reddit.com/r/R6ProLeague/comments/a21l93/season_8_lan_finals_operator_pick_rate_ban_rate/

Season 8 Finals, Pro League: Pick Rate 4,8% 6th place from below, abover Tachanka, Recruit, Frost, Caveira and Kapkan...

Yeah totally overpicked and overused. NOT.

Lore shouldn’t justify a bad mechanic in the game, Echo has a bonus over every other defence operator (besides Mute kind of) in the fact that he can’t be rung and his cams can’t be hacked. He’s already a good enough operator, he shouldn’t have that added on because the lore says he does. Also the lore behind why his Yokais can’t be hacked is no longer valid, since defenders can now access it.

Don’t mind his bases, don’t mind the gun nerf, doc and rook could do with adjustments, however the stats show rook armour is consistently very strong for what is no work other than picking the rook and every wasting a few secs in the prep phase. I like Rook, I like that picking him is statistically very good for the team but I think it both needs another element added to it (via selecting who on the team risks going without) and it does need a nerf. He (as of pre-MP5 nerf) had the highest win delta of any defender, for no risk or even effort, that needs to balanced.

My point about the pro league was more about how it’d be interesting to see who the pros choose to leave armour-less. The roamers are likely to engage in the early important fights, the anchors needs to stay alive to protect the sites and attacking routes etc, who do they choose to prioritise the vests for.

You want to go that route? How about Caveira then, who is able to move silently and not leave any footprints for jackal behind?

It's not Lore if it's a design choice. Someone not using phones, because his gadget is tied to another kind of technology (an drone) and hasnt even the same features as someone else.... should not get affected the same.

The only thing I want to have deleted is ela and sofia resistance against consussion effects. 50% reduction? Well, if you don't inform yourself about it, how should you know?

Edit: look: rook isn't even played in pro league, now make his ability weaker and he will have the same pick rate as tachanka. exactly zero. NO ONE is going to play him anymore, because his armor doesnt even do anything against halfway better players.

[Fradley110]

Originally posted by Honey Drake:

What's tactical about managing resources when you are in a random squad, while him being useless in any team which is halfway cooperating? Does it make it more difficult for Bandit to have only one charge, while needing to combine him with Mute to actually be able to do what... he should be able to do alone?

Do we start balancing the game for low elo players now? Well, how about giving Thatcher 20 EMP Grenades, so defenders have to be tactical on how to use bandit charges, mute jammers and other stuff

If you don’t want to be tactical about who gets the armour vests, don’t be, just let them rush to the armour, sure rook Mains would be happy with that. How is Rook useless in a co-operating team even after he hypothetically loses a best? His armour ensures a down before a death, a co-operating team knows how to exploit that, a co-ordinated team can decide, tactically, who doesn’t need a vest. I really don’t get this point.

Rooks high win delta is from the diamond and plat PC stats released a while back, most to do with lower ranked players.

Also defenders are tactical about bandit batteries, mute jammers etc. We decide where to put them, do you prioritise stopping drones or protecting walls, as bandit do you try to bandit trick or drop and roam. Rook does none of that. He puts his armour down and without anything else, he’s statistically very powerful for his team without anything else required. He’d still be perfectly simple to use as I’d want him to be for new players while having a bit more depth to him for co-operating teams.

Like honestly the only downside I genially see is possible salty teamkills by the guy in solo queue who didn’t get to it in time

[FedEx Noelle]

Rook is fine.

[Uncle Sam]

Well rook gadget is fine, only the MP5, the R4-C, the F2 need a "tweak" / slightly nerf like adding more horinzontal recoil and a bit harsh vertical recoil. So "mag dumping" isn't as viable with those weapons.
Regarding Echo, if they nerf Dokkaebi gadget to no longer be a "global hack", and the phones turn off alone after a few secs, sure let's Echo get affected by Dokkaebi phone call.

[Fradley110]

Originally posted by Honey Drake:

You want to go that route? How about Caveira then, who is able to move silently and not leave any footprints for jackal behind?

It's not Lore if it's a design choice. Someone not using phones, because his gadget is tied to another kind of technology (an drone) and hasnt even the same features as someone else.... should not get affected the same.

The only thing I want to have deleted is ela and sofia resistance against consussion effects. 50% reduction? Well, if you don't inform yourself about it, how should you know?

Edit: look: rook isn't even played in pro league, now make his ability weaker and he will have the same pick rate as tachanka. exactly zero. NO ONE is going to play him anymore, because his armor doesnt even do anything against halfway better players.

Cavs silent step is not lore, it’s not a passive ability she just has, it’s her actual ability that she activates to avoid both being heard and tracked. A better comparison is the Zofia and Ela concussion effects which you mention. It’s a mechanic in the game based purely off lore, which shouldn’t exist (also don’t think Zofia should pick herself up but less relevant). Echos drones can be viewed by defenders but not hacked and he just passively can’t be rung on his device, meanwhile all other cam operators can, even ones like maestro who also interact with their cams. It just is a lore mechanic.

Mate please google the win delta stats that came out, I would link it but it’s quite hard on my phone sorry, this is at high level, he has a 3% win delta, the highest of any defender. Sure he’s not overly used in pro leagues but Cav definitely isn’t and she still got nerfed recently, we don’t just focus on the pro league and I say that as someone who really enjoys it. Also he’d still get picked far more than Tachanka even if he only had like 3 haha

I feel like you really aren’t aware of how powerful rooks vests actually are and I can understand why since it is a passive effect on the game unlike almost every other ability

[Uncle Sam]

Rook & Doc win delta is due the MP5 mostly, not for their gadgets, like ASH she's picked for her R4-C and due being a 3 speed, if Ash was a 1 speed or 2 speed Zofia will take her place tbh.