Is a stutter-free experience at least possible?

[michoko]

Hi,

I bought a steam link recently, and before I was using a laptop to stream games from my PC.

My PC config is pretty good, at least for the games I want to run:
Intel 6700K 4.2 Ghz
Z170 PRO Gaming motherboard
16 GB of RAM
Nvidia GTX 1060

I use beta steam client, but the latest stable build does the same. I use a wired ethernet network.

When I paly streamed games, I always get a micro stutter here and there that prevents the experience to be totally smooth. There is no lag spike in the performance graph, no lost packets or frames. But when I play a 2D game like OwlBoy or Seasons After Fall, the stuttering is very obvious.

I tried MANY things, like:
- Changing bitrates limits
- Enabling/disabling shadow play
- Changing games settings (resolution, vsync on/off, triple buffering on/off, and so on)
- Tried various NVidia drivers versions and registry tricks

None of them seemed to remove this stutter. Since my rig is certainly capable of handling those indie games, I begin to wonder if the current In-Home Streaming technology is actually able to provide a stutter-free experience. Because if it isn't, there's no need for me to bother finding a solution that will never exist.

Could someone tell me that they experience butter smooth side scrolling with streaming without a single frame drop? I'm very sensitive to this, and I'd like to solve this issue.

Thank you!

[dannyhefc69]

Originally posted by Bota:

Maybe people using the dejudder option(or super smooth motion, or other fancy name) on their tv's don't notice it...

I have all that stuff disabled, dont even use game mode. Do you regularly game at 120hz 144hz ect, making 60hz look like ass to you

[michoko]

Originally posted by Bota:

I have all that stuff disabled, dont even use game mode. Do you regularly game at 120hz 144hz ect, making 60hz look like ass to you

Personally I only play at 60hz max. But if you don't see stuttering in the previously posted videos, then it means you are not sensitive to it (lucky you! :P)

[Ozi]

1. Big picture isnt the issue for me, micro stutter is occuring with desktop streaming too.
2. Everyone is talking games here (which is a problem for me too) but we should include video playback. Thats far less demanding than games and i still get the micro stutters (veeeeeeery annoying here)
3. i am still not in to the shadowplay function. i got a GTX 760 which enables me using shadowplay. But i only found, that shadowplay doesnt work with steam link rather than a shield device and that it is for recording rather than streaming?
4. regarding my question about moonlight. I understand that the Host is my desktop pc. But i still need a client device to stream it and that cant be the steam link, right? So that was my question with the second pc/laptop because i need a client running moonlight too?
5. I presume its not a display related issue. I tested 2 tvs and a beamer projector, both the same issues.

[michoko]

About question #4, again the cheapest option might be a Rapsberry Pi, since there is an unofficial Moonlight port for it. But if you really have a lot of stuttering, it might be an issue also with your network or your system. It might be interesting to test at least with a borrowed PC as a client, to see if you can achieve near-perfect streaming (micro-stuttering put aside). If you can, then Gamestream might indeed be an option.

[dannyhefc69]

https://youtu.be/1eYKT1jb0D0

https://youtu.be/yGLzNlIBUqM

https://youtu.be/fqEUctA_AHQ


Theres 3 seperate steam link sessions, 3 seperate games, using 2 different steam links. Same network, same system and both steam links are wireless 5ghz

Can you guys see any shuttering???

[Ozi]

Originally posted by michoko:

About question #4, again the cheapest option might be a Rapsberry Pi, since there is an unofficial Moonlight port for it. But if you really have a lot of stuttering, it might be an issue also with your network or your system. It might be interesting to test at least with a borrowed PC as a client, to see if you can achieve near-perfect streaming (micro-stuttering put aside). If you can, then Gamestream might indeed be an option.

I have got a chromecast, perhaps theres a Moonlight for it, i will check that later on.
My network probably isnt the issue. I got a brand new gigabit ethernet all over my home, tested it big times and i got no issues on any of the lines.
Testing the steam link with my laptop even worsenes the stuttering.

btw. my specs are AMD Phenom X2 1090T with 16 GB and a GTX 760. Not a monster machine but quite powerful enough for most of the common stuff. I tested it on Win 7 and Win 10 (both 64 bit), not related to the OS as far as i can tell. I still suppose theres an issue with the steam link hardware/software itsself or maybe the steam client?. Streaming from Desktop pc to laptop/beamer with normal streaming software like Teamviewer works totally fine.

[Bota]

Originally posted by dannyhefc69:

https://youtu.be/1eYKT1jb0D0

https://youtu.be/yGLzNlIBUqM

https://youtu.be/fqEUctA_AHQ


Theres 3 seperate steam link sessions, 3 seperate games, using 2 different steam links. Same network, same system and both steam links are wireless 5ghz

Can you guys see any shuttering???

Cmon dude... that aren't even 60 fps videos... how do you want to see stuttering at 60 fps if you use videos at 30 fps? If you cannot see the difference between 60 and 30... you really are a lucky person.

If you record videos at 30 fps with the game rendering at 60 fps, it's almost impossible to see the stutters that we are talking about. To see stutters at 30 fps capture you need to have a 30 fps rendering...

[dannyhefc69]

Originally posted by Bota:

Originally posted by dannyhefc69:

https://youtu.be/1eYKT1jb0D0

https://youtu.be/yGLzNlIBUqM

https://youtu.be/fqEUctA_AHQ


Theres 3 seperate steam link sessions, 3 seperate games, using 2 different steam links. Same network, same system and both steam links are wireless 5ghz

Can you guys see any shuttering???

Cmon dude... that aren't even 60 fps videos... how do you want to see stuttering at 60 fps if you use videos at 30 fps? If you cannot see the difference between 60 and 30... you really are a lucky person.

If you record videos at 30 fps with the game rendering at 60 fps, it's almost impossible to see the stutters that we are talking about. To see stutters at 30 fps capture you need to have a 30 fps rendering...

All the videos are recorded @ 60hz 1080p. I could record 1 at 120hz if you need another video, but youtube maxes out at 60.

But what has those videos got to do with me seeing the difference between 30 and 60? OP asked if a shutter free experience is possible, which i think it is, so im showing results im getting

[Ozi]

anyone tried an android alternative? Would the Bqeel M9Cmax be a good choice for moonlight?

[michoko]

Thank you dannyhefc69 for the videos. It is not easy to spot micro-stuttering on Youtube videos, especially on 3D games, because the movement goes in all directions. So FIFA is the best candidate, as it is side-scrolling. And I think I spotted an image jump: at 2:42, when the counter-attack begins, there is a frame jump. I don't know if this is a recording or youtube artifact, but it feels the same as the stutters I get. When you play 2D games with constant horizontal scrolling (like OwlBoy, Seasons After Fall, Ori and the blind forest, or emulators), the frame jump is very obvious.

I found this very in-depth technical article here: http://www.hardware.fr/articles/950-5/mesures-latence.html
Unfortunately it is in French, but it says exactly what I suspected: compared to Gamestream, Steam streaming uses an extra optimization by disabling vsync systematically. It could sound like a good idea, but I suppose that sometimes a frame or two can then be missed and the final encoded stream is not as smooth. If Steam does a specific operation to disable vsync, it should be easy to add a "Do not disable vsync (can increase latency)" option in the host settings. That would leave a lot of room for tweaking on the host side and game settings, and since it would be optional, it wouldn't harm those who don't want to use it.

[Bota]

Originally posted by dannyhefc69:

Originally posted by Bota:

Cmon dude... that aren't even 60 fps videos... how do you want to see stuttering at 60 fps if you use videos at 30 fps? If you cannot see the difference between 60 and 30... you really are a lucky person.

If you record videos at 30 fps with the game rendering at 60 fps, it's almost impossible to see the stutters that we are talking about. To see stutters at 30 fps capture you need to have a 30 fps rendering...

All the videos are recorded @ 60hz 1080p. I could record 1 at 120hz if you need another video, but youtube maxes out at 60.

But what has those videos got to do with me seeing the difference between 30 and 60? OP asked if a shutter free experience is possible, which i think it is, so im showing results im getting

Thanks for the videos. Unfortunately they are not on youtube at 60 fps. Here´s an example of a video at 60 fps(don´t forget to select 1080p60):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhhsmcoYybc

If you compare this with yours, there´s clearly a massive difference in fluidity. (not 100% 60fps footage, but when it drops, it shows on the graph).

If you make one, try to put it on youtube at a framerate of 60. To best see the stutters, stand still and press the right analog stick on your controller to the left or right, just a little bit, so that the camera turns 360º slowly around(like the first video that i posted).

I would do it myself, but my smartphone only records at a maximum of 1080p30... :/


Meanwhile, here´s a video that show a steam link stream(at 30fps, unfortunately) stuttering issue. It´s easy to spot at 0:47. EDIT: bad example, because the framerate is dropping... In the beginning of the video is 60fps(59.94 - 61), and there is stuttering.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skmAOUS2XTs



Here is a video with a graph that shows battlefield 1 on xbox one and ps4. When the framerate drops below 60fps, even if you don´t notice it, the graph will show that the framerate is plummeting. I hate to play like that... For me, constant 60 fps, ever. What i hate is that i can get 60 fps on pc, but on steam link i get it for a few seconds, then it stutters, then more stutters. Nvidia Gamestream is giving me perfect results.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxmdc82bTBI

See 3:38 in the above video. For most people that is a smooth gameplay, but for me is a stuttery mess...

This is the kind of fluidity that i play and that i get with gamestream(not real time footage, but perfect 60 fps to give an idea):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qK7SNAd1ds

[Bota]

Originally posted by dannyhefc69:

https://youtu.be/1eYKT1jb0D0

https://youtu.be/yGLzNlIBUqM

https://youtu.be/fqEUctA_AHQ


Theres 3 seperate steam link sessions, 3 seperate games, using 2 different steam links. Same network, same system and both steam links are wireless 5ghz

Can you guys see any shuttering???

On the FIFA video: 2:31, 2.42, 2:47... just to name a few... it´s easier to spot if you look to the advertising boards. Of course, if the video was at 60fps, it would be much more noticeable.

[slouken]

When you're doing testing for stuttering, please turn on the performance graph, and then when you see stuttering you want to capture, use F8 or Start+X to capture a snapshot of the streaming pipeline. It gets put in the Steam streaming folder on the remote computer.

Please post a link to a few of those snapshots, with a description of what you were seeing when you captured them.

I did this here, and was able to see some small stuttering, and looking at my snapshots they correspond to variation of around 6-8 ms in network times.

[Bota]

Originally posted by slouken:

When you're doing testing for stuttering, please turn on the performance graph, and then when you see stuttering you want to capture, use F8 or Start+X to capture a snapshot of the streaming pipeline. It gets put in the Steam streaming folder on the remote computer.

Please post a link to a few of those snapshots, with a description of what you were seeing when you captured them.

I did this here, and was able to see some small stuttering, and looking at my snapshots they correspond to variation of around 6-8 ms in network times.

https://mega.nz/#!oU0ggSiS!C63D4srY4omTFexyPtmmVm2g49O_khth5T-hT2NZ3d8

Here it is. I experience some stutter. Sometimes it stays smooth for a few minutes and then i have some stutters, then smooth for some seconds, then a few stutters. Capture done right after stutters. Minimum settings in game. 720p. 5mbps. Vsync on and off(doesn´t seem to change anything). Software encoding, hardware encoding and also shadowplay encoding.

Spikes on the graph happen when a capture is done.

Also sent streaming log.


Intel i7 3770K 3.5GHz(no overclock)
Gigabyte GTX 1070 G1 Gaming
Gskill DDR3 1866MHz cas9
Intel smart response(64GB SSD (cache + 1TB Western Digital Blue)
Asus P8Z77V-LK(realtek ethernet card)
650Watt Antec Power Supply
Lg E2350 1080p 60Hz monitor
Huawei router HG8247H (ISP provided)
Windows 10 Pro Anniversary Edition


NOTE: I would be nice if valve had a better way to get logs from customers other than ask them to put them on a public forum... An option on steam link or steam client, perhaps...

[BigHotDog4BigMan]

I'm glad this thread exists and appears to be gaining a bit of traction. Hopefully it'll be resolved some day!